Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (00:00)
You know, Brian, when we started this show, I said we're not gonna have any ads. And I'm sticking to that. But I was thinking the other day, if we ever did have some kind of advertisement or sponsor on the show, it would be really flippin' weird because I would make an ad that would convince me to buy a thing or to be interested in a thing.

So

If we had an ad for something, like you get the vitamin supplements or whatever that you hear on these other podcasts, mine would be more like, Yes, this supplement appears to, under certain circumstances, improve health in a few small ways. There are several studies published in reputable journals with a very small p value, which indicates that it is possible that maybe as a painkiller, aspirin is better than placebo.

Brian (00:48)
You know, at least that would be better than my ads.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (00:50)
What would those be?

Brian (00:51)
Well, you know, if we ever had a blue apron subscription or something, I'd just belch into the microphone and be like, Yeah, ate it.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (01:08)
Welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory where the spoilers go all the way through twelve months. I am Adam Ruzzo, and joining me, as always, it's a man who will kill you for giving the wrong answer. It's Brian O'Reilly.

Brian (01:24)
Or Pepsi.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (01:26)
Sasparilla?

Brian (01:28)
OFF WITH HIS HED!

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (01:30)
so we're here to talk to you about chapters twenty-seven, twenty-eight, and twenty-nine of Summer Night. And boy, Brian, these are some heavy chapters because Aurora's gonna interrogate Harry in order to find out what he knows, then order Slate to kill him. Elaine is gonna intervene at the last minute, convince Aurora to take a different tack, which saves Harry's life.

The gatekeeper shows up out of nowhere to talk to Harry and give him one final secret test. And then finally, we have to have Harry team up with everybody else on Team Dresden in this book, including Meryl and Fix and all the Alphas, and they're gonna head towards the battle in the sky, but not before they run into both the Tigris and Ace trying to lay an ambush.

But let's start at chapter twenty-seven.

with him awakening inside a circle of toadstools, and he is just as trapped as any of the things that he has ever trapped inside his summoning circle here, which we've seen in in full moon, you can trap mortals in these circles. You just have to do it right.

Brian (02:35)
Yeah, I think the interesting thing about this scene is that this is Jim's first go at something that he's going to do a lot, which is the we've got the hero tied up and now we're questioning him or something, but it's really an opportunity for us to have a conversation and for us to understand the villain's plan.

We're gonna see this again in the next book and perhaps most hilariously in proven guilty.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (03:05)
You're selling me on eBay?

Brian (03:08)
Jim is spectacularly good at these scenes, both because they're compelling and because I believe why the villain's keeping him alive. So I really love this. This is not the cleanest one that he does, but even in this scene, I have so much trouble with this in so many other series. Why didn't you just kill the guy?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (03:32)
Yeah, this that this is we're

gonna talk about this later, Brian, but if you recall back in the the nineties, somebody put together an evil overlord list. Like if I was an evil overlord, these are the things I would not do. My ventilation ducts will not be big enough for people to crawl through. You know, a big list of things like that. And boy howdy, gloating over the hero and telling them your whole plan is definitely one of the ones on that list.

Never do that.

Brian (04:03)
Yes. No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die in an indeterminate amount of time. Yeah.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (04:07)
Exactly. Yeah it

Brian (04:09)
and you believe it here because Elaine is gonna give a good reason for Aurora not to put him out of his misery, but you also believe him waking up in the moment because Aurora's

building to a final question here and everything else that she has, the entire dialogue only makes sense because that's the question she's waiting to spring.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (04:36)
Yeah, because Aurora here needs to find out what Harry knows and who he has told. Remember, she needed him dead in the Walmart. He got away and did a bunch more investigation since then, including talk to the mothers. So she doesn't know who he has talked to.

where her liabilities might be at this point. And she's basically gonna put him in a zone of truth and force him to answer her questions so she can find out, A, what he knows, B, how he knows it, right? Did he get information from someone else that could lead other people to learn the same thing? Does Mab know? Does Mave know? What's going on? So that is a very good motivation to keep him alive temporarily. And as you pointed out, later, Elaine is gonna give her

Another very good reason to do the evil villain arrange his death and walk away.

Brian (05:28)
Yeah, if you look at all of Aurora's questions and all of her answers, they're all directed towards having Harry both tell directly the information that he has in answer to what she asks, but also to, through his questioning of her, show the information he might know that she's not even thinking she should ask him about. So

when Dresden says you hired the ghoul, the tigress, you sent her after me before Mab even spoke to me, it's useful for Aurora to know the things that he's wrong about. She'd have no reason to ask him about that.

Now she knows maybe I can pin it on whoever's hired this tigress, this this ghoul. And then Dresden says, You set me up before I came to interview you, without prompting, because this shows that Dresden understood kind of how they got away with misleading him when he was talking to Aurora. This is stuff he could have told someone. So

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (06:36)
Right.

Brian (06:37)
Not only does Aurora need to interrogate him, she also needs to just listen to him talk to see what unprompted he will say that she wouldn't even think to question him.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (06:50)
Right. And that's this is where we get, you know, Lloyd Slate coming and saying, spooky, he doesn't look all that smart. And Aurora's response, and yet he used nothing but reason to figure all this out, and therefore others might have as well. We really need to examine what's going on here. So the that that's sort of the the main Watsonian reason that this scene exists in the universe. Why is Aurora doing this? But from a writer's perspective, from a Doyleist perspective.

This is a fantastic way for Jim to lay it all out there for the reader, right? This is Sherlock walking around the room and it revealing everything that happened in the background or the mystery itself. And he starts by drip feeding to you the identities of the conspirators. We know Harry kind of figured out that it was Aurora in the previous chapter, but before he could, really

walk down that train of thought and figure out everybody else, he gets whapped on the back of the head and wakes up here. So at the there's a couple of paragraphs where he finds out he's trapped and he turns around and there's Aurora, the summer lady. And then there's a couple of paragraphs of him talking to her and describing what's going on. And then I glanced past her at the ogre Grum. Now he's introduced and then the unicorn, which we also know is part of this. And then he reveals

Lloyd Slate was also the fourth person present, right? He sets this up by saying there's five people here, and then he starts saying there was Aurora, there was Grum, there was the Unicorn, there was Lloyd Slate. And then we get like a page and a half or more before he finally reveals Elaine stood a little apart from the others, her back to them. That is the big reveal that he's toying with you here. Now, readers might have figured that out.

Or they took the opportunity while all this is going on to think who's that last person and maybe it's Elaine. It lets the reader feel smart because Jim gives them the extra time to put it together. He gives he hints that there's another person who could it be and it helps make the reader feel smart, but it also just raises the tension as he's slowly giving you this information.

Brian (09:06)
The scene's also satisfying from a doylist perspective because Dresden

And Jim walk through the questions and walk through the revelations in a way that's dramatically interesting. So Aurora doesn't give the reason for her scheme until the end. It makes sense for Watsonian reason, it's the last thing that she cares about communicating with Dresden. But from a Doylist perspective, the why is the most interesting part. And that

That, just like the fifth conspirator being the most interesting part, is what's buried at the end.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (09:48)
Alright, so there is another small piece in the beginning of this where Slate calls Harry the Great Kreskin He says, Great, no one squealed. Can we kill the Great Creskin now? And I had to look this up, Brian, because I didn't get that reference. Apparently, the amazing Creskin was a mentalist who became popular on TV in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, usually on like late shows with Johnny Carson or even as late as like Jimmy Fallon

in the early two thousands. And so that's just a reference that he's making. And I was thinking, you know, is Lloyd Slate old enough to get those references? But when I learned that he'd also in the nineties, yeah, he definitely could have gotten those references.

Brian (10:24)
for sure. And you know, I'm a little disappointed because I just assumed it was a magician and come on, Slate, a mentalist?

you want somebody who does magic tricks, not Patrick Jane, but less attractive.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (10:37)
Yeah. And more cruel. so that I thought was pretty interesting. But now we've got to talk about Aurora's given reason for this whole scheme. We've kind of been dancing around this the whole book while we were looking forward to talking about it in this chapter. We've been examining her moves earlier in the book, but this is where we finally get it, where Harry tries to where Harry is revealing what he knows again under her compulsion and

His final line is, You want to destroy the balance of power in fairy. I don't know why. Now this causes Aurora's eyes to flash dangerously. She turns away from him, which frees him from this sort of truth spell that he's under, and she rants about her reasons. She says, Why? It should be obvious to you, why wizard, you of all people.

The cycle must be broken. Summer and winter constantly chasing each other, wounding what the other heals and healing what the other wounds. Our war, our senseless contest, waged for no reason other than that it has always been so, and mortals trapped between us, crushed by the struggle, made pawns and toys. It must end, and I will end it. Harry interrupts by saying

You'll end it by sending the natural world into chaos? I did not set the price, Aurora hissed. I hate it. I hate every moment of the things I've had to do to accomplish this, but it should have been done long since, wizard. Delay is just as deadly. How many have died or been tormented to madness by Maeve and those like her? You yourself have been tortured, abused, nearly enslaved by them. I do what must be done. Harry again interrupts.

Harming and endangering mortal kind in order to help them? That's insane. Perhaps, Aurora said. But it is the only way. Unquote.

Now, Brian, on its face, that does sound pretty contradictory. I mean, Harry seems very confused here, and I'm just as confused as as he is. Can you help us make light of this? How can basically causing what amounts to massive casualties from climate change

Or even worse, allowing winter to run rampant over the mortal world because summer's been destroyed, how can that possibly be a reduction in harm?

Brian (13:05)
Yeah, so the simple answer is that Aurora's just nuts. The next words out of Dresden's mouth are bite me fairy fruitcake, meaning nutty ass, right? That's

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (13:20)
Yes.

Brian (13:21)
the reference. The the first possibility here is that Aurora is just losing it, and she literally cannot even puzzle out that no, this is gonna hurt more people.

Because she's off her rocker.

Which isn't very satisfying.

From a Watsonian perspective, it kind of leads to the question of why is she crazy? But it's also a bad answer from a Doylist perspective. That's how you write a bad villain. they're just gibberingly lunatics, you know, for no reason. They they can't do the math on who gets hurt and who doesn't. They're stupid.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (14:00)
Yeah, it's barely

better than why did the villain do the villain thing? Because they're evil, period.

Brian (14:06)
Well, in some ways it's even worse than that, because if the demons are chaotic evil, okay, I can just buy that as a conceit, so fine. But here it's not even that the villain's chaotic evil, the villain can't do math. Like she cannot

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (14:23)
Ha ha.

Brian (14:23)
count the number of human lives harmed versus saved. And and that's not very satisfying. We don't want our hero to be pushed to his limits by a villain who, you know, couldn't get out of third grade.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (14:35)
But Brian, there is a more satisfying Watsonian explanation here, and we're provided that explanation in cold days when Lily is revealing to Harry that, hey,

All of those early cases have one thing in common, it's nemesis.

Brian (14:51)
Yes, Lily's opinion is that Aurora is infected. She straight up tells us this in cold days, agreeing with Dresden's read on the situation. So if we can take her at her word, then that's just a possible option that explains literally everything. I mean, we see Justine trying to.

burn the world and her husband to the ground under Nemesis's influence. So Aurora might be spinning all these reasons to Dresden as a complete cover in fabrication for the actual thing that's going on.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (15:31)
Yeah, but we're gonna talk in our question for Bob about the possibility of Nemesis being behind this and how Nemesis might actually be affecting Aurora. So stand by for that discussion at the end of this episode. For now, Brian, let's talk about some sort of non nemesis explanations. Are there any other ways we can sort of steel man the argument that Aurora's putting here to make it make sense from her per

From her perspective.

Brian (16:01)
Yeah, definitely. And I think what we have to reckon with here is that we're not going to make this argument work in the sense that you and I, looking at it with the moral compasses we have, are going to agree with Aurora. That's just not possible. What she is arguing in favor of is tantamount to genocide. However, it's possible to see how from Aurora's perspective.

Her views could be warped into earnest belief that what she's doing is the right thing. And the important thing to note about these reasons is that they neither depend on her being infected or, you only work if she's not infected. This could be the arguments through which she is corrupted, or they could be arguments that she had and

any infection was sort of ancillary and only sort of created the form of the final product. One possibility is that she simply doesn't know why the fairy courts have to exist in the first place.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (17:14)
Yeah, I you brought this up and at first I was kind of aghast, like she has to know about the outer gates, right? She has to know that Winter's primary purpose is protecting reality from the outsiders. She's the summer frickin' lady. But then I reread everything that she had said when she was ranting at Dresden, and there's this one line where she says, quote, Our war, our senseless contest waged for

For no reason other than it has always been so. Unquote. That line really does suggest she doesn't know that there is a greater purpose to the existence of the winter court in particular, but the s the court's plural together in protecting frickin' reality from non-existence. That seems like.

not something you would overlook and say, yeah, this war is being waged for no reason at all, aside from protecting reality from the outsiders.

Brian (18:22)
Right, the explanation we get from the mothers in cold days is perfectly cogent. The winter court exists to protect the world, and the summer court exists to police the winter court, essentially. That is not there's no reason for the war. The reason for the war is right there. We need one side, and then we need the other side to protect us from them. So Aurora's description is on its face not compatible with that knowledge. And if there's

A queen who could lack information about the outer gates, it would be the summer lady. That's not a part of her job description. Importantly, this doesn't seem to be something that Lily is very familiar with either. Part of her naivete about Mab being the one who is infected.

In cold days is missing that if Mab was infected, she'd just open the gates. So the fact that Lily can't put that together and that Aurora doesn't

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (19:32)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (19:33)
seem to know it here kind of creates an avenue where maybe the summer ladies aren't not in the need to know club on the relationship between the winter court and the outside. Titania obviously.

Has to know. There's no way the summer queen doesn't know. They're a summer she at the outer gates. But Aurora doesn't have to. On the other hand, Adam, what she said is compatible with knowing that if you just look at it metaphorically, because she's not saying that the war literally exists for no reason. She's saying that it serves no ultimate purpose.

Why is summer fighting the people who are protecting reality when it leads to an amount of suffering that is just as bad or worse, in her perspective, than letting winter have its way?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (20:29)
Exactly. Th she's basically saying, Okay, but can't we protect reality without having the Fey at each other's throat all the time and the mortals caught in between? that could be a different way to read that. Now, let's

Brian (20:45)
Which

is and that is compatible with a different strain of argument, the notion that this is for the greater good.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (20:54)
Yeah, so let's set aside the idea that she doesn't know about the Outer Gates and assume that she does, because that seems more likely to me. And the only way to make the rest of her argument make sense under that circumstance is that she is doing some ultimate utilitarian consequentialism here, where the the ends justify the means, right? Yes, okay, there will be some temporary

you know, really bad harm during this war that I'm starting. But after that, there will be relative peace and the actual suffering will finally go away. So yes, a lot right now, but in the long run, the math does check out. That's that could be a way to interpret what she's saying here.

Brian (21:41)
Yeah, and look, that's the math behind every revolution in history. The idea that we're going to increase violence in the period that we're in right now, because over the long term, having created a better society, it's going to lead to a world with less violence in it. And I think people would broadly agree that it's worth putting up with the American Revolution to get the Bill of Rights.

So I think that that argument can be correct, but Aurora is stretching it to a ludicrous extreme, Adam, because in her calculus, is there any way that the summer she survive?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (22:27)
Yeah, that's a really good question, because if she gets her way and the summer night's mantle gets sacrificed on the altar and it goes to winter, there's a couple of different things that could happen. We don't know exactly what would happen. You know, w Lloyd Slate seems to think that he would get twice as strong. We'll talk about that in a minute. But regardless, winter gets stronger and

If that means they win the battle in the clouds, does that mean Titania dies, gets captured and sacrificed on the s on the stone table? Does Aurora somehow get away? Do they see that they're losing and retreat to wherever the summer wellspring is? What did you call it? Care tropis or something like that?

Brian (23:13)
Yes,

exactly.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (23:14)
So th I mean, 'cause that's where they're strongest, so maybe they could fight a a a besieged battle there for a time. Under those circumstances, does what does that do for suffering? It seems like they haven't really eliminated it, they've just extended it.

Brian (23:30)
Right, this is the old, you know, Tacitus has Calgacus, the Celtic leader in northern Britain, say of the Romans, they make it a desert and call it peace. Aurora is gonna get everybody killed, and there's no fighting anymore. Like,

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (23:48)
Ha ha ha.

Brian (23:49)
yeah, there isn't, but the whole reason we were fighting is so that everybody wouldn't die, Aurora. It's

Presumably gonna lead to an ice age. I mean, that's its own mass casualty incident. This

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (24:01)
yeah.

Brian (24:02)
is sort of the the reflection of some of humanity's either worst or hardest to justify instincts. It's the reason why most people, you know, can find accelerationists off putting at the very least.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (24:18)
Yeah, definitely. Now, there's another way to sort of square the circle with regards to her like insanity defense that we were talking about. If she, as we may suspect, is very empathetic or or very f strongly feeling emotions in the way that Mab doesn't, right? In the way that Mave is not empathetic, maybe Aurora is an extreme empath. Similar, but like

Way stronger than Molly is before she becomes the Winter Lady. Under that circumstance, it could be that the pain being inflicted on her own is something that's literally driving her insane, and maybe all it takes is a little bit of nemesis nudge.

To push her over the edge. And we've got other speculations about exactly how that might happen. And you don't even necessarily need to invoke Nemesis to suggest that that might be the case. If you take a compassionate person and you put them in a position of simply enduring all of the pain and suffering of other people around them, you could easily see how that would eventually drive them either to insanity or to stop.

being compassionate, right? That that's one of the ways that you see people burn out and become a cold person is when they're forced to suffer that kind of pain on behalf of others.

Brian (25:42)
Yeah, and I think we get some clues that that's what could be going on here. So first it's important to remember that as you remain in one of the fairy queen mantles, as far as we know, your ability to sort of recall who you were and to feel the way you felt before you assumed that mantle is diminished over time.

So Aurora's losing connection to how she felt before she became the summer lady. Because of that, she might not be able to use reason and logic to determine that the way she's feeling is not reflective of the way other people feel. If everyone's feeling the way she's feeling, and she's feeling horrible.

Then she could really trick herself into believing that this is for the greater good. And why might she be feeling all of this death and destruction so intensely? Because we know that the fairy courts use that kind of magic, because we've seen what a banner of power does when you're one of the fairy queens, or in Harry Dresden's case, one of the knights. He

Feels the deaths of his followers as they happen. The tragedy is immediately with him and constantly with him. And if Aurora's feeling that, but she's somebody who can't emotionally distance herself from that happening, it might be literally driving her crazy

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (27:27)
Yeah, and you have to

imagine that her mantle is going to make her feel it more so than Mab's mantle, just by the nature of it.

Brian (27:35)
It's the equivalent of Chinese water torture, death by a thousand cuts. She's just screaming in agony and she just won't need someone to end it. And if she can't even recognize that others don't feel the same way, she'll honestly believe she's doing everyone a favor.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (27:52)
Alright, now she's ranting here, and as I mentioned before, she sort of takes her eyes off Dresden and the and the truth spell breaks. And as a result, when she asks him, Does the White Council know what you have discovered? He answers, Bite me, fairy fruit cake. And Slate has to stifle a laugh.

And Aurora has a sudden surge of rage and she says, What did you say? Ape? And before Harry can say another smart ass line that gets him insta killed, Elaine jumps in and says, They don't. He told me before we left the mothers, the council doesn't realize what's happening, Yes.

Brian (28:30)
Well, that's true, Adam. I mean,

he you know, she's just telling Aurora the truth.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (28:35)
But she never was told that. She's making it up because Harry never shared that information with her. I went back and looked at the whole O'Hare airport scene and in the scene where they f arrived and had to deal with the unicorn. Harry never talks to her about the council and his conversation with Morgan. Not once. So it's possible it happens off page on their way from O'Hare, in the in the carriage between the chapters.

But my interpretation of this, Brian, is that she is entering in and lying on Harry's behalf to save him in this moment.

Brian (29:12)
Absolutely. And I think we know that because she could have done this without lying. She could have said, I know him. There's no way he told the council. And that's true. Harry's not the kind of person who gives this information to authority figures if he feels like he doesn't have to. And Elaine has already kind of made him promise that he's not going to reveal her to the council. So

It's very possible that, you know, she can, putting it together, believe that what she's saying is true. But she doesn't tell Aurora this is what I believe, and she doesn't just say it without explanation. She specifically says he told me. Well, okay. in that case, Elaine, you're definitely making it up.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (30:02)
Yeah, and doing it for good reasons, but this is something that Harry doesn't really clock in the moment, and the reader won't either necessarily. This is something I only noticed because I'm reading this very carefully, and I thought to myself, wait a minute, did he tell her that? So I thought that was very interesting. It helps again reinforce that there are little breadcrumbs that Jim has been putting in here that will reveal the fact that Elaine is ultimately going to side with Harry at the end of this.

During the big climax, he's gonna help him save the she's gonna help him save the day. Now, that brings us to the next part of this where Harry tries to appeal to both Slate and then to Elaine, but finds no help. Slate reveals that he is going to get Rule's power when Lily is sacrificed on the table. That doesn't really sound like that would work, though, Brian. Do you think sacrificing one knight on the table creates a double knight?

Brian (30:58)
Jim has actually answered a question about this. Now, his answer was just finger nose, suggesting that the person asking the question was correct. But their theory is that Slate is not actually planning to hold both mantles. They're planning on taking the summer night out of the equation and causing the war and then taking the power and giving it to winter. Now

The questioner doesn't say this, but we can assume that Slate is under the impression that since it's Knight Power that's entering the Winter Court, it will go to him. But there's literally no reason to suspect that. Knight power is just a piece of the winter court power invested into a mortal.

It might go directly to Mab or to Mother Winter, or be distributed among the winter court equally, none of which puts him in a position where he can take MAVE in any real sense.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (31:57)
Yeah, and that seems to be his ultimate goal, is to get out from under her thumb, because she's MAVE and she's cruel and has a binding on him that she probably isn't supposed to have, as we speculated about in a previous episode.

And this probably wouldn't overcome it, but Even in the chapter where the mothers are talking to Harry and trying to get him to understand the law of conservation of power, right? As it apparently a applies to fairy power, basically the mantles can't

ever be destroyed, but they can change form. And it seems entirely likely to me that when you sacrifice a mantle on the table, it just changes into pure power. The mantle itself doesn't necessarily go over to winter. You don't get a second knight with fire power in the winter area. I think it just turns into greater power for winter that to be distributed however Mother Winter or Mab or whatever that process would be.

Brian (32:56)
Yeah, and we I think get some confirmation on page that Slate's wrong about this because after Harry puts it to him, suspicion grew in his eyes. But Aurora laid a hand on his shoulder. Slate's eyes grew a little cloudy at her touch, and he closed them. Peace, my knight, the summer lady murmured. The wizard is a trickster and desperate.

Yeah, but you didn't say he was lying now, did you?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (33:24)
No. And I wonder if she could be like hijacking the winter binding that Maeve has and using her power to influence him subtly in a way that's opposite of what Maeve does, which is by brute force bring him to his knees with that binding. She might be using that binding to just subtly manipulate him into thinking she's right about things. You know what I mean? That that could be her way in.

Because otherwise, you know, could she really just do that to him? I don't know, maybe.

Brian (33:55)
It

it would be very mauve for her to keep a really obvious backdoor in her code that other people could exploit.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (34:01)
Yeah.

Brian (34:04)
And that leads to Aurora telling Slate to off Harry, and he prepares to turn loose his death curse and at least try to stop what's about.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (34:17)
Yeah, that's a great way to end a chapter, right? But this is, I think, the first time we're really introduced to the concept of a ch of a death curse. We speculated when we were talking about Grave Peril that Harry probably threw a death curse maybe without knowing it, or the be next best thing to one when he was throwing those fire spells inside of Bianca's mansion. But I believe this is where Jim officially introduces it as a concept.

By saying about talking about how he's got one last spell to throw and he's gonna he's pulling in all the power that he has inside himself. and then he says, quote, granted, once used, there wouldn't be anything left to keep me breathing, my heart pumping, and electricity going through my brain, but then that's why they call it a death curse, isn't it? Unquote. Boy, Brian

There's no way you can stop at the end of this chapter. No way. You have to turn that page.

Brian (35:12)
Now see, I thought you were gonna say it's a great ending for a completely different reason, because the actual ending line is Aurora saying grim business, Aurora said. Goodbye, Mr Bond. I mean Dresden.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (35:28)
Yes,

exactly. That is how it officially ends. But like the the sword is about to come down and he's about to launch his own death curse, and you're

like, how the hell is he gonna get out of it this time? And it it turns out Elaine is going to have to save him.

Brian (35:44)
Yeah. Now, if you hadn't see Elaine lie last chapter to keep Harry, in Aurora's good graces, saying he didn't tell the council I know it, you might believe Elaine's explanation here. And I'm sure a lot of us, the first time we read it, did think that she stopped.

Aurora from having Harry killed because of exactly what she tells Aurora. Elaine knows about a death curse, and this will ruin your plans.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (36:18)
Presumably she might even see him preparing to do it, right? She might feel it happening

Brian (36:22)
Feel it, yeah.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (36:23)
with her own wizard senses.

Now, She then convinces Aurora to arrange his death and leave. Once you're back in the Mortal Lands, he won't be able to reach you with his death curse. Let him spend his curse on Mab if he wishes, or his godmother, but it won't be on you. It sounds like really good advice from Elaine. Like

Literally, if Elaine didn't do this, it was gonna go badly for Aurora. Again, maybe not enough to kill her. Dresden's probably not that strong, but maybe he could put some kind of terrible binding on her that slows her down long enough that she can't do what she wants to do tonight. So it does look like legitimately Elaine did save her from that specific fate. It's her reasoning.

that matters here, and we find out very soon that she's actually the motivation is to save Harry, not to save Aurora.

Brian (37:23)
And I've said on a couple occasions that Elaine must be X, Y, and Z, or she's the world's greatest actress. Well, I don't think she's the world's greatest actress, but she does put on quite a performance here. First, when Harry tries to get her to turn against Aurora in the previous chapter, she does a great quavering job of she didn't look up at me. She felt quiet for a moment.

Then swallowed before she said, I didn't know. She's stung when he says people are going to die. You know, she breaks. And then, no, she's helping Aurora because she has to, because otherwise she'd be forfeiting her own life. It's so selfish. And now she regarded me with flat eyes. She regarded me passionlessly.

I know his defenses. I'll hold him as long as necessary. Elaine goes from you've wounded me, I'm a poor little lamb to Yeah, this Dresden guy, don't worry, I'll help you kill him. Yeah, he's just trying to, you know, mess with your stuff, Aurora. I got

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (38:31)
Right.

Brian (38:32)
your back.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (38:32)
She's either acting in the first scene or the second scene because those are those are not compatible.

Brian (38:37)
And I think

presumably in both scenes, and her real feelings are even more complicated.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (38:44)
I definitely agree with that. Now, as we joked about before, she is going to arrange the hero's death and leave, which should be something on that evil overlord list right after I will never build a sentient computer smarter than I am, and right before one of my advisors will be an average five year old child, any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation. if those sound fun, go look up

Evil Overlord list. It is a hundred things that if one were to become an evil overlord, one should never do. And opp arranging your opponent's death and then leaving them to die should definitely be on that list. But I looked, Brian, I couldn't find it.

Brian (39:25)
Yeah, I mean I think they're also missing the make sure that the exhaust port is even smaller than a womp rat. So they don't cover every situation on the list.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (39:35)
Yeah. Now, Elaine, of course, binds Harry with magic so that Aurora can turn the ground under him into like some kind of quick sand, quick mud thing. And then when Harry asks her, Why did you why the hell did you stop me from killing her? Elaine just says, You're an idiot, Harry. Now, of course, the read of that from Aurora's perspective is you're a fool for not seeing the value of this plan. You should have been on Team Aurora.

But from Elaine's perspective is you're an idiot, Harry. How could you be so stupid? I'm trying to help you. That's another double meaning that you can read differently on a reread that we were talking about before.

Brian (40:17)
Yeah, and Harry makes it really hard for her to deliver the information to him. But thank God he's so thick, because if she doesn't say it, he's probably not gonna realize what happened. Elaine calls him a melodramatic fool, and then says, I couldn't be sure, you wouldn't have thrown the curse at me, too. She's back in selfish mode here.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (40:40)
Yes.

Brian (40:40)
And then

It's just like old times, which is eventually going to be the thing that makes Harry realize. Yeah, just like old times, Elaine, you back biting, poisonous, treacherous. And then a thought hit me. Just like old times, deceitful, wicked, clever girl.

If this works, I'll buy you a pony.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (41:12)
Now Brian, we know Jim doesn't leave these things hanging, right? When he said next time anvils, it took like ten books, but we got anvils. So when is Harry going to buy her a pony?

Brian (41:28)
Probably sometime

after one of the fairy unicorns dies.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (41:32)
Yeah,

maybe. Maybe. Alright, so Harry starts to slowly sink into the mud. Aurora and Ko then book it out of the never never. Harry finally realizes what's going on. He now blasts himself out of the mud like Iron Man, using Forzare, gets stuck in a tree covered in mud upside down.

Which is when the gatekeeper chooses to walk up and observe him and starts laughing at him

Brian (42:02)
and speaking of callbacks, Adam, we're gonna see a great callback to this when the gatekeeper finds Harry with the head bandage and turncoat, and they have a very similar conversation to the one that's about.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (42:18)
Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely gonna talk about that. Now, at this point, we get what is essentially the final test from the gatekeeper. Remember, this whole thing that Harry's going through is a trial. And not like the judge with a jury and everything, but more along the lines of a contest to determine your quality, sir. So he has to pass this test.

And the final test is when the gatekeeper says, Yeah, you've passed. You're good to go. Did you wanna keep helping? That is the final test. And after Harry says, No, it's not over. I'm gonna see this through. The gatekeeper says, Had you walked away, I would kill you myself. Wow. That is

Bomb to drop here, Brian. What do you what did you think about this when you first read it? Do you have any memory of that?

Brian (43:16)
When I first read it, I thought that that was pretty unfair from the gatekeeper. Because of course we know that Harry is a pig headed, courageous lunatic who is absolutely willing to throw his exhausted self once more into the breach charge of the light brigade style. But nobody should be expected to be that suicidal. Gatekeeper, you know.

Lucky for Dresden that he's a lunatic because you're being ridiculous. But Adam, this many years later, I gotta agree with my man Rashid.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (43:55)
Yeah, just learning so much more about the ways in which it appears Harry's life could have gone, the kind of crazy amount of power he could have built, the kind of evil overlord he could have been, which we're gonna get more of when we see Mirror Mirror, that makes his decision to like if you had not chosen to

continue dealing with the thing you are responsible for, it would prove that you are not worthy of this power as everyone else has suggested, that you are too it is too risky to allow you to be corrupted because you are not strong enough to deal with it. That is a really interesting thing to put here at this moment.

Brian (44:42)
Yeah, it's one of the great things about having the twenty book outline. Jim already knows that he's going to make Harry this important. He just hasn't told us yet. So other characters who are eventually going to be revealed to know a lot already act with the knowledge they have. Really increases the verisimilitude in the series as you reread it. One

Thing that I love about this though is that I feel like it really gives us a big clue as to kind of exactly what people are worried Dresden could become. And it's kind of the same thing that he's being asked about in the beginning of this book. What the gatekeeper is trying to figure out here is if Harry's doing all of this.

Crazy stuff he's doing for his own advantage, or because he's just that much of an idealist. And this is the perfect test. If Harry's willing to walk away when he's secured his life, well, in that case, he's just doing all of this and probably got the council into this war in the first place because it was to his advantage.

If he's willing to put himself in harm's way, even though you just told him he's off the hook, then he's a crazy idealist and you get to like him. And in this moment, Rashid decides that he does.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (46:19)
Yeah, and I love the next twist because all of the senior counsel that we've met so far have been very much by the book. Even Ebenezer is always trying to argue within the lines and the rules and how everything works. And we get this point where the gatekeeper's like, Okay, good, you pass the test. I don't have to kill you. And here, these will help you finish the job. And he gives him a piece of the table.

So that he can find his way to the battle in the clouds, and he gives him the ointment, which will come up in many books in the future, that allows him to see through most glamours. And Harry basically points out, like, you're you're helping me, actually. And the gatekeeper very loyally says, No, no, no, no. I'm not helping you. That would constitute interfering in the trial. So far as anyone else is concerned, I am merely seeing to it that the trial can reach its

Full conclusion, to which Harry responds, Yeah, maybe if you just give me the piece of table, but the ointment is something else. You're interfering. The council would have a fit, and this leads to my favorite line because it it really shows you, hey, the council, the senior council, doesn't have to all be the same because he says, Wizard Dresden, this is something I have never said before and do not anticipate saying again. He's setting you up for a big reveal. Sometime.

What the council does not know does not hurt it.

Brian (47:46)
Well, it's a really good line and it tells you a lot about Rashid's character, but it's also the thing that lets me know he likes Dresden.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (47:56)
Hm.

Brian (47:56)
Because yes, he's making a joke out of it. Part of this is just the setup for the joke, but he does take pains to say that he's never said this before and does not think he'll say it again. If he's making this one exception to help Harry.

It's because he's chosen to back this particular horse. He likes the cut of his jib. And I think that this shows us that Rashid isn't just making these decisions on the basis of how Harry has acted, the things that he's heard when he's listening, but also on maybe.

the potential futures he's seen, some

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (48:42)
Mm.

Brian (48:43)
of which we might find out about in Mirror Mirror, as you mentioned, Adam. So with that, Harry has to answer a very important question. What do you wear to a war?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (48:54)
Exactly right. So that takes us to chapter twenty-nine where Harry is preparing for Beattle. And in this we get a very important detail everybody remembers when Harry reveals at the very end of the battle, Toot Toot and Co. carrying a bunch of box knives, then they slice Aurora up. But you can actually see

All the pieces coming together because

it's right there in the second sentence. I made my calls, set an old doctor's valise outside the front door, got a quick shower, dressed in black, did all this other stuff. And then later,

When Billy and the Werewolf show up, quote, the minivan was pulling up outside and beeping the horn. I checked the doctor bag, closed it, and went out to the van. And then we get him asking, Hey Billy, did you bring the stuff I wanted? And he says, yeah, Walmart was crazy, but here's the stuff. Quote, I tore open a package of orange plastic box knives and put them in the doctor's valise, then snapped it closed again.

He's giving you all the tools you need to potentially suss out what's happening here. He left it outside, it was open, he looked in it, it was closed. Something went in it while it was just out there. Then he puts the box knives in there, and then he only mentions it again insofar as he's picking it up off the ground after he gets knocked down or something during the battle itself. And so he's got that ace in the hole there. And so even if you're not really paying attention, you know he's got something in the

the in the in this bag he's carrying, but he hasn't told you what it is.

Brian (50:30)
And Jim throws a little bit of a red herring in because he doesn't take his gun with him. Quote, I didn't need to get arrested for a concealed carry. I popped the gun, case and all, into my bag. So as far as you know, okay, Harry has a weapons bag. Maybe the box cutters are for the alphas if they can't wolf out. You know, you have no idea, but he is

Already shown that this bag, which for some reason is a doctor's valise, is something that he's putting guns and knives into. Okay, that's enough for me not to think about it anymore. Of course, when eventually he opens it at the end of the book, it hits you: it's not a weapons bag. But we'll get to that in the next couple episodes. Well, yes, yes. A

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (51:19)
No, it's not Well, it is a weapons bag. Yeah.

Brian (51:24)
secret weapons bag.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (51:25)
So when Billy and the werewolves do pick him up and they're driving towards where they're trying to go, he's got his the the piece of the stone table that he's using Thaumaturgy on to try to locate how to get to the stone table, and they're driving and they eventually get to the wharves. But in the process, Billy needs some information. Like what's going on? And this is an excellent opportunity for Jim to

To sort of recap everything for the reader, because we just had a lot of dense dialogue in the previous couple of chapters where we learned a ton of information. In the mother's cottage, we learned a ton of information. And then before Harry can really ruminate on it and sort of narrate to us his thought process of what's going on, Aurora shows up and we then have a lot of dialogue there, which reveals a lot more stuff. And he still doesn't really have time to ruminate on it and help the reader.

Connect the dots, but hey, here comes Billy. He doesn't know what much of what's going on is at all, so Harry is gonna lay it out for him in a summary, and it goes like this quote. So what's the score, Harry? Well intentioned, but dangerously insane bad guys are ahead coming down the stretch. The fairy courts are duking it out up there, and it's probably gonna be very hairy. The summer ladies are baddie, the winter night is her bitch. She has a magic hanky. She's gonna use it to change a statue into a girl.

Killer on a big Flintstones table at midnight. Unquote.

Brian (52:42)
Yeah, a very Jim Butcher way to sum things up. I mean, this is where you see the author and the character intersecting each other. And then Billy goes on to ask some clarifying questions that both serve the Watsonian purpose of showing us that the alphas actually understand the mission and understand the stakes, and just like that summary, serve the Doylist purpose of making sure that.

Before we go into what's going to be probably the most intense, pure climax chapters in the series so far, that the reader has their bearings.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (53:22)
Yeah, he could have just said, so I explained everything to the Alphas, but instead he actually goes through the motions because a lot of this really solidifies sort of a questions that we might not have fully answered yet. Like Billy's asking, like, I understand Aurora's trying to tear apart both the fairy courts, right? I mean, why would she do that and not just try to kill Winter? Now we can think the answer to that question might be because she

does know about the outer gates, but here they need some explanation for a reader that doesn't know about the outer gates. So we need to close these loopholes and Jim needs to make sure that the reader understands the actual situation at hand before we go into the climax because as you said, it's real dense and we're not going to get time to slow down and really puzzle things out.

Brian (54:13)
Yeah, we've got left in this book five chapters, and even this one ends in a shootout. So the whole rest of it is gonna be pretty breakneck through until the epilogue. Now, we actually also get a mention of Andy and Marcy, still unnamed, but Jim is already developing these other werewolves as early as this car ride and summer night.

We've perhaps seen them in full moon, and Jim is going out of his way to make sure he highlights two similar characters.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (54:50)
Yeah, as he's putting the ointment on all of the alphas, it says, quote, one of the girls, a redhead who had been daintily plump, now looked like something from a men's magazine. She gave me a somewhat satisfied smile as I noticed, and the next, a petite girl with mousy brown hair and long scar on her shoulder, held her dress against her front and confided

She's been impossible this year, as I smeared ointment on her, unquote. Brian, if that's not Andy and Marcy, I don't know who it is.

Brian (55:17)
it's gotta be. Now we go from this moment of levity to get your game face on. We got to the gate and found it open. Uh-oh, Adam, somebody has gotten there ahead of them and beaten them to the punch.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (55:34)
Yeah, and that's really interesting. So we then find out it's the Tigris and Ace. Ace is shooting. The Tigris comes at him on like all fours in full ghoul form. But of course, they're not neither of them no one expects the sudden werewolf attack, apparently, because the werewolves take them all down, but not before Ace can shoot at Harry and actually

Accidentally hit Merrill. Now it seems to be mostly a grazing shot for the most part, but we the whole thing brings us to this great line. After the wolves have disarmed Ace and dismembered the tigress, Harry says All clear? The wolf ducked his head in a couple of quick nods and dropped the flashlight at my foot. I picked it up. The wolf barked again and started off towards the wharf. I frowned at him and said, You want me to follow you?

He rolled his eyes and nodded again. I started off after him. If it turns out that Timmy's stuck down the well, I'm going home.

God damn it, Dresden. You

Brian (56:39)
man, that's so good.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (56:41)
have to though, right? If a if a dog is trying to lead you somewhere, that's the only reference that matters.

Brian (56:48)
I think the best part is he doesn't describe which alpha it is. So that makes it even more of kind of a lassy thing. Like you're not even you

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (56:56)
Yeah.

Brian (56:58)
one other thing we should note in terms of the alphas who are described is we can also guess who takes out the ghoul

And we're gonna see this a lot in the future what gets the ghoul?

Quote The ghoul shrieked in surprise and fell, tumbling. She regained her feet and struck out at the wolf who had bloody her, but the big grey beast rolled aside as a taller, tawnier wolf leapt over him. The second wolf took the ghoul's other leg, bounding away when the ghoul turned on it.

Well, a third wolf darted in at the tigress's back. And who deals the killing blow? The wolf she'd hit, which we've gotta be pretty sure is Billy Borden, because his wolf form is described as gray. And of course, we haven't really seen the extent of their romance yet, but who was second in on the ghoul after him? It had to be Georgia.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (57:56)
Yeah, a taller, tawnier wolf leapt over him. That definitely sounds like Georgia.

Brian (58:00)
So it's just great to see that Jim has already figured out this entire dynamic, which he's going to reuse as late as turncode. Now, we get this scene with Ace, and Adam, I don't really understand how he thinks this is gonna go, because he kind of tries to talk his way out of it.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (58:22)
Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, it's kind of his only option at this point, right? He's not gonna fight his way out past all these werewolves and a pissed off wizard and an injured friend. But at the same time, the way he seems to not understand how his actions have affected his friendship with Merrill and Fix, I kinda pity him a little bit here, Brian.

When he explains that he was doing this for them, because the red said if he could kill the wizard, that they would protect him from Slate. And on its face, that's a noble goal, but you know, the means are pretty horrifying. It's just one wizard. Who cares, right? I mean, that i that's telling. That's very telling about his personality. And might be something about him being the son of a red cap, but

We then get this line where he tries to convince Meryl and Fix to run. And Merrill says, you know, I I'm not answering, I'm not running. And he says, quote, if you don't want to run, then we should think about what we're going to do. After this battle is over, Mave and Slade are just gonna come for us. But if we declare loyalty, if we choose, unquote, he is still using the word we as if his friends want anything to do with him. He has no concept that.

He has gone so far over the line by sacrificing their friend Lily and then accidentally shooting Merrill while trying to kill the only person who agreed to help them in the first place.

Brian (59:56)
Yeah, I think Merrill sees through what is transparently just attempt to manipulate them. Because after she kicks Ace in the stomach, she says, quote, you worthless trash, all you ever think of is yourself. Because to me, it seems as though, yeah, Ace does misunderstand that he's ended this friendship by shooting Merrill, trying to get Harry killed, and maybe more importantly,

By not helping with any of the things regarding finding Lily, but if his plan works, Adam, what's he gonna do? Walk out and shake Merrill and fix his hand and say, Our problems are solved now? So he only seems to invoke this friendship at the point where he thinks it could get him out of something.

And you know, like you said, like father, like son, the red cap seems to be a little bit of a sociopath too, but Ace really doesn't seem to understand even how people with normal emotions will read his actions.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:01:02)
Yeah, in his perspective, he's like, I I was doing this for you guys, don't you understand? just complete disconnect there on how they will respond to his generous actions, as it were.

So that's about the end of the chapter where Harry reveals that there's this staircase of that he sort of lights up with his will, and then they're gonna head we never actually get, I think, exactly how how how many steps, how many stories this thing is, but Brian, to get some exercise today, I climbed 20 stories. And boy, when you get to the top of that, it is rough. And

That's not even close to getting up to the clouds.

Brian (1:01:44)
Yeah, man. Five stories is a walk up in New York City that you think should be illegal.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:01:51)
Ha ha.

Brian (1:01:51)
Twenty is an incredible, you know, punishing test. Two jetliner heights is like, I don't know, three hundred stories, three thousand stories? Something like that. Yeah.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:02:04)
Some somewhere north of one hundred or one fifty, I would imagine.

Now if it was actually that high, even Harry wouldn't be able to really walk afterwards. So it probably was turning into fairy at some point. Maybe they only had to go up ten or fifteen stories before they magically show up in the clouds.

Brian (1:02:21)
Right, this could be exactly one of those areas that Faravax is trying to keep from happening in the battle for Chicago as opposed to the battle over Chicago, one of the places where the never never is kind of bleeding into the mortal world. That's why you can take a stairway to heaven at the end of the rainbow

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:02:44)
All right, that about does it for our chapter discussion this week. That's the end of chapter twenty-nine. For next week, we are gonna be talking about the last four chapters of Summer Night. That's the entire battle in the clouds all the way through the epilogue. so which is chapters thirty through thirty-four. But before then, we have a question for Bob.

Brian (1:03:10)
We talked about how to explain Aurora's motivations without Nemesis earlier in this chapter, but you're a immortal spirit. Maybe you can help tell us how Nemesis actually could convince her to pursue this scheme.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:03:26)
Yeah, unfortunately, Bob's answer this week was he's deep in concentration trying to predict tomorrow's weather.

Brian (1:03:35)
Why has he got a bet in a baseball game or something?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:03:37)
I don't know. Maybe he just wants to see if he can be more accurate than the National Weather Service.

Brian (1:03:42)
Well, since Bob's not available, we'll just have to do our best with help from Reddit. So nobody gave the answer, Adam, that Nemesis was in direct control of Aurora. Is that a possibility?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:03:57)
It might be. We have seen Nemesis be in direct control of Justine and still fool basically everybody that's around her into thinking that she's still Justine. But at some point you have to wonder: okay, but with more powerful beings, could it do that that convincingly? I mean, we see when it takes direct control of Cat Sith, it has a real hard time actually.

passing as Cat Sif instead of just lurking in the background and sort of manipulating him. So I have to imagine if it's a lady of the fairy court, it might be a lot harder to directly control her. It seems much more likely that there was some kind of manipulation or partnership or some kind of or some kind of corruption of purpose.

Brian (1:04:49)
Yeah, I definitely think that is more likely. But I do want to flag that I think it could be possible for Nemesis to assume direct control at moments, you know, when important things happen, sort of hijack Aurora and make a decision for her or say something for her, and then give it right back to her so that Aurora feels like,

I just emotionally reacted in whatever way I just did. Well, I'm, you know, the queen of emotions. So I'm just gonna roll with that and trust how I felt.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:05:25)
Yeah, par for the course.

Like every once in a while I black out in rage and kill something by accident.

Brian (1:05:30)
I mean, seriously, Nemesis might be able to convince Aurora that that's just who the mantle's making her into, and she might follow that instinct. It would be a little bit of a different kind of direct control than what he does with Justine or Cat Sith, but we don't actually have any evidence that Nemesis can't do something like that. So I think it is possible, but I also think it's less interesting, which is why

I really liked the first answer you put here, Adam.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:06:01)
Yeah, Powder Kegger 1 thinks Nemesis was being pretty subtle. They say, quote, We are told that the Queen mantles have a great deal of governance over the bearer's personality. Over time, they will more or less completely change the bearer into a simple vessel for the mantle, meet the new mave same as the old maeve. To me, that implies that the mantle acts as a kind of crystal-clear intuition or compass that steers the bearer.

Like we see the Winter Knights Mantle doing to Harry, but on a more powerful level. I think it could be interesting if Nemesis didn't present itself outright, but instead manifested in Aurora's thoughts as the one thing she was completely unused to doubt. Nemesis didn't need to give Aurora the Bearer ideas that the cycle of violence and death in the courts represent were a pointless game. Aurora the Bearer knew that already. But Aurora the Mantle

was the one who had no choice but to play her part in it. Unquote. That's a fascinating idea, Brian, that somehow the mantle would be preventing someone like Aurora from going crazy over their job, and Nemesis basically revoked that protection.

Brian (1:07:17)
Yeah, I mean, what is the thing that would get a fairy queen to turn against her purpose most quickly? A perspective that makes her question the validity of that purpose. The whole edifice is built on being exactly what you have to be to do your job. And as soon as you start questioning if that's who you really should be.

Well, the whole house of cards is collapsing. I mean, Mave nearly screws everything up just by being lazy. Can you imagine if you actually had the instinct to work against your purposes? Not in the normal way that a creature controlled by Nemesis does, but by perverting the goals you have into a

doubt about the methods you're using. Really, really clever. I I love the idea that Nemesis is just sort of weakening some of the fringe benefits of having one of these mantles in a way that puts the person holding it in conflict with their very being. It's just

Truly evil.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:08:42)
Yeah, absolutely. And I love the idea that the mantle, part of its inherent core is a level of certainty in its purpose, right? I mean, think of what Harry felt when he gave in to the winter night's mantle in cold days and like grew those ice claws out of his hands. There was no doubt in his mind on what he should do. Everything was a direct statement. I should murder this, I should tear, I should.

Hunt, I should fuck, like all of this stuff was just this is going to happen. But I could definitely see that being extended to the certainty that what you're doing is worth the price in the veil of the winter lady or the summer lady and

Nemesis being able to subvert that certainty and introduce doubt might be enough to create the kind of conditions that cause Aurora to have the sort of problems that she has processing this.

Brian (1:09:50)
and I think that's very probable for the same reason that the Winter Night's Mantle suppresses pain. That doubt, that feeling like maybe what I just did was bad, interferes with your ability to have clarity and efficiency with the next thing you're going to do. And also, I think we've seen this very transformation with Harry. Since he's had the mantle, he's simply become more ruthless.

I don't even think it would occur to the Harry of Summer Night to taunt Fix the way he does in cold days, because he simply didn't have that level of cold calculation in him as a liar, as an actor, as a manipulator. So I think this is very sympathetico with what we've seen of Fey Mantles, and that really strengthens the idea that it's what.

The outsider might choose to attack. But it's not the only possibility. Eloquosaraptor

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:10:54)
Yeah.

Brian (1:10:56)
agrees that Aurora wasn't a puppet and boils it down to two separate possibilities that require a little less artful pressure on behalf of Nemesis. One is she was quietly going insane over the constant cycle of pain, as we talked about earlier.

And Nemesis offered her a way out, in addition to pushing on her emotions and desires, Ala Maive, who was looking for an opportunity to stick it to Mab and was pleased to be able to lie. Or two, Nemesis pushed on her existing normal feelings and anxieties until she went insane, without her ever realizing she was being manipulated by the enemy.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:11:40)
Yeah, this is a very interesting point to sort of lay it out like this. Like she either is directly working with Nemesis, like, I know this thing is here and I want out and it's offering me a way out. This is like knowingly going along with this corrupting influence. Not being subtly manipulated without being known, but literally talking to in her head, perhaps, in the way same way that Harry talks with Lash.

And is being manipulated by Lash, but knowing he's being manipulated. And then number two is like Lash before she actually gets revealed in his head. She's just pushing on him from the from like, yeah, be a little more angry. Be a little more angry. And he doesn't know that she's doing that to him. Those are both interesting possibilities. I don't know that I buy that Aurora is talking to Nemesis only because I feel like if that was the case.

There may have been some hint on the page where she appeared to like pause for an overly long moment and stare into the distance and then came back. Like there's nothing to suggest that she's having a conversation with some other entity in her head.

Brian (1:12:55)
Well, I think that that's a good point, Adam. Jim doesn't give us any particular reason to suspect that. However, from an outside perspective, Harry probably never seems to talk to Lash, because he doesn't really do it when there are people around. So Aurora might feel like she's got Nemesis locked up in a little place in her head and she can talk to it when she wants to, and you know, it's not actually interfering with her in the moment.

When in reality, its manipulations have fundamentally changed who she is. Option two, the kind of it's you know turning all the dials to maximum until the machine breaks, is also interesting. But I want to produce a third option, which is porceno los dos. Nemesis can be simultaneously, just like Lash did, putting Aurora into a position where she

needs to find a way out. And then, like the devil on her shoulder, offering her one.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:13:58)
Yeah, that's a really cool idea too. Now, L Fitch 47 gives us sort of a method through which Nemesis might have manipulated Aurora. They said, quote, Nemesis has the time to figure out Aurora's soft points and from there figure out how to wind her up like a spring powered toy whose mainspring has been overwound. I expect in this case Nemesis gets Aurora to talk to herself.

Where Nemesis is intervening on both sides of the conversation to wind her up and convince herself and once Aurora is all wound up,

Then Nemesis releases the breaks that all the Fey have on them, like lying or acting against the Fay compulsions that are part of Fey law. Unquote. This one is really interesting, and I love the idea of like, you know, when you have a conversation into yourself in your head, and you're like, did I leave the stove on? And what am I gonna get for dinner? And maybe I could go to that place. Like just talking to yourself in your head or even having a little debate, like I could do this or that, I maybe I should do that first.

But Nemesis is actually both sides of that conversation, making them both more angry. That's a really interesting idea.

Brian (1:15:02)
Yeah, we've seen this used on Harry by what are either walkers or outsiders, both in cold days, where it is a walker, and probably in the Wraith Deeps at the end of White Knight, where Lash has to sacrifice herself to give him the opportunity to throw off that psychic attack. But the thing that this most resembles to me, Adam, as an idea, is also in White Knight.

The psychic attack that the hunger in the scavus is laying on Elaine, where her own thoughts seem to be what's pushing her to suicide. Even though Harry can tell that the voice saying them isn't actually hers. Really kind of bizarre mind control. Like, have you ever read the Animorphs? Real Yuriek kind of energy on that.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:15:59)
Yeah, to the point where, like, you trust your own thoughts in your own head inherently because they are your thoughts. So if something can intervene and pretend to be your own thoughts, it's really convincing because it's just automatically trustworthy. And hijacking that as nemesis would be really very sinister. Now, there was one

Out of the box answer here, Brian, that I want to feature. Fitz eighty four has this wild hypothesis that might just turn out to be true.

Brian (1:16:34)
I've always thought it was Maeve who convinced Aurora, and that Nemi wasn't an Aurora at all. A huge part of the cold days plot is discovering and then convincing everyone else that Maeve can lie. If everyone assumes that Maeve's telling the truth, then Aurora can act completely within her nature to to take action to disrupt the cycles of violence for an ice age or two.

Remember, Mave convinced everyone that Mab is insane or infected. If Aurora destroys the balance by giving Winter the Summer Night's Mantle, then Mave and Slate can depose Mab. My proposal is that Aurora was not infected, just lied to by Mave. And since Aurora was not infected, Elaine probably is also not infected.

Now, the last part I think is almost certainly true for slightly different reasons. I still hold on to Elaine is a starborn as a theory. But I do think that this is a good point. If Aurora knows Mave can't lie, and Mave tells Aurora things about what is happening or is going to happen if things continue as they are, and what

Would happen if winter won, but those things are lies. Aurora might honestly believe, in total accordance with her nature, that ending the cycle and giving winter the football forever actually does serve people.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:18:16)
Yeah, and that actually mirrors what Nemesis literally does in cold days. And that's one reason I think that this is slightly less likely to be true because Jim probably doesn't want to repeat the same plot beats multiple times. So to me it seems a little bit more likely that Aurora was actually infected. But

Answering why we never know what happened to Aurora's piece of nemesis, and we tried to explain it like, well, maybe if they die, it goes back to the host and it can get to somebody else. Like, we don't have a good answer for that. So this would explain that and that would make it a little bit more appealing. Now, Brian, did you have any ideas that you didn't see represented on any of the Reddit posts?

Brian (1:18:54)
Yeah, I think that the idea that Elfitch forty seven is laying out is really, really good. Aurora's just talking herself into this crazy course of action, except it's not her talking to herself. But that made me think, I mean, what if Nemesis is being even more subtle? Because the outsider doesn't have to change who's talking to

If, like Fitz84 was saying, it just changes the information she's working with.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:19:28)
Mm.

Brian (1:19:28)
And there's a really easy way to do that that doesn't involve infecting any other fairy queens. If you've mentally hijacked Aurora, can't you just the exact way Lash does to Dresden in Deadbeat change her literal perception of reality?

Does use this exact trick, though not with the person who is infected in cold days, when Maeve changes what Harry says to Lily after he's downed Fix to drive her into a rage. So

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:20:09)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (1:20:09)
maybe Aurora's literally seeing a world that doesn't exist. And in that world, what she's doing makes

perfect sense. And that's why she can't be reasoned with. She does think that everybody who's telling her different is deceived or lying because she trusts what she's seen with her own eyes.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:20:34)
Yeah, that's I think a very strong possibility. And when I was looking at this before I posted the Reddit thread, I tried come up with my own idea before it was influenced by others. And I kind of walked my way through what exactly the summer ladies mantle is compared to the other mantles and how Nemesis might use that to manipulate Aurora. So I started with.

The winter's queen's mantle seems to push Mab to be cold and calculating, almost emotionless, right? I think in the same way that Harry has to fight to remain calm and nonviolent, I think Mab has to fight to feel any emotion. And similarly, I think the summer queen's mantle, Titania's mantle, of course, being opposed to the winter queen's mantle, is going to

push Titania into overfeeling emotions. This, of course, manifests in that Cold Days scene where she says she follows the quote wisdom of her heart, unquote. And I think that means she has to fight to remain rational and logical. Remember in Cold Days she said, I could visit torments on you that would make Lloyd Slate's fate seem kind by comparison. I want

To eat your heart. And then she says, The wisdom of my heart tells me to hate you, mortal. Whatever my reason might say, I will not help you. Unquote. All of that seems to play into this concept that Mab has to fight to feel emotion, and Titania has to fight to feel reason and logic. And then we go to the winter lady. Okay.

The Winter Ladies Mantle, based on what we see from Molly and Maeve, seems to push her to be manipulative, tricky, and a temptress, especially not caring that it hurts others, which is sort of a reflection of the winter mantle. Again, under the idea that it makes you feel emotionless. So Maeve doesn't appear to care at all when she's hurting people or when she kills the musician, right? It's all for her own fun and entertainment.

makes her seem like a sociopath because she doesn't care. the Winter Lady's mantle is a reflection of Mab's and it comes with that extra element of trickery, manipulation, and temptation. That follows then, that Aurora's mantle might have some of the Summer Queen's mantle where she overfeels her emotions. However, because she's the opposite of the Winter Lady, instead of having no feeling for others, no compassion, she has

Extra empathy rather than less. She would care for others more. And that's where Nemesis can exploit her. I think it can boost those effects of her mantle, making her feel the empathy pain of all the things that are happening. Every time she hears about something happening or sees something horrible happening to a Fey or a Mortal or whatever, it just feels

stronger than it normally would because she's used to the strong feelings of the mantle, but I think that nemesis is pushing it to eleven. That's kind of where my hypothesis ends.

Brian (1:23:55)
Yeah, I think that really interestingly dovetails with Powder Kegger's idea that we mentioned at the top of this answer, where if you remove the things that insulate the queens from the damage their mantle could do them, or if you heighten what the mantle's doing to overcome that insulation, you've taken something that's designed to protect the mortal world.

And you've caused it to become a ticking time bomb. I do think that there is one other possibility we should consider, though. And that's the idea that Nemesis has effectively convinced Aurora, and what way doesn't precisely matter, but that Nemesis has effectively convinced Aurora that if Winter wins.

If the war between the fairy courts are over, that that's going to create a world where all the winter fee are at the outer gates and none of them are interfering with the mortal realm and therefore hurting humans. I think where Nemesis might be lying is that.

The battle against summer is a necessary part of the winter court's training to serve on the outer gates.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:25:28)
Hmm.

Brian (1:25:29)
So Aurora, if she knows about the gates, thinks that she's actually strengthening humanity's defenses against the outside. Yeah, you'll have to deal with an ice age, but at least the world's gonna keep going. And as a bonus,

I freed you from supernatural tormentors. When in reality, what she's doing is setting it up so that a bunch of green troops get slaughtered at the outer gates as the ones that are currently veterans fall in Battle

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:26:04)
Yeah, I think that has to be part of Summer's job or purpose here is that the Winter Fey have to cut their teeth on something that's not an outsider, so that they when they actually fight outsiders, they won't be green, as you say. Now, sometimes that is hunting humans in the mortal realm. Sometimes it's fighting with the Summer Fey. But either way, they're gonna come out stronger.

And if there's nobody to push them, nobody to make sure that they have to fight and be strong, they won't be that way. If life is easy, then why get stronger?

Brian (1:26:41)
Yeah, and one thing we should possibly mention is that if Winter wins, the immediate reaction would be, well, wait a second, you know, how does that help? Nemesis, winter's the part that defends the mortal world against the outside. So that provides an answer to that question. And another answer could simply be that Aurora is describing something that will break the fairy courts.

She might think, look, it's okay. In all of the years that I've been the summer lady, we would have had the strength to simultaneously hold the gates and reform the courts. But perhaps because Aurora's never lived through one of the starborn cycles, she doesn't know that the hammer blow is about to fall on the gates.

And they'll need all the power they can get their hands on. Meaning this extra bandwidth she thinks the Fay Courts would have to reorganize into something that's less violent towards mortals, actually, if it has ever existed, doesn't exist anymore.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:27:54)
Yeah. All right. I think that is going to do it for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. We will see you next time.