Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (00:00)
So Brian, when Morgan delivers his assessment of the Red Court's capabilities to the White Council, there's a moment when he describes having a crystal ⁓ that he places into a stand and it shows like a hologram of the world and the Red Court. And I actually legitimately wrote down in my notes

Text. Yeah, anybody else picturing the briefing to Return of the Jedi? I think that Jim was channeling this and I came up with this whole thing like, do you think he did it subconsciously or is this more a conscious thing? And I and I wrote all this in my notes. And then I read two lines down where Harry says, Bah, he stole that from Return of the Jedi. And I wrote a new note and it just said, Yeah.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (00:53)
Welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory where the spoilers go all the way through twelve months. I'm Adam Ruso and joining me as always it's a ward hound taking his job seriously. It's Brian O'Reilly.

Good boy. Now, Brian, We are looking at chapters four, five, and six of Summer Night this episode. Boy, this is a doozy. I hope you guys don't mind if we move through the topics fairly quickly because there is a lot to cover here.

Brian (01:21)
Yeah. First of all, we have to get to our first meeting with Ebenezer, who pulls up in a and I love this detail, thirty-seven Ford pickup, you know, 'cause 'cause fifty seven would have been just too modern.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (01:29)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (01:35)
But you can tell that he's successful because, you know, he bought the equivalent of the F one fifty during the Great Depression. So real status symbol.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (01:43)
Yeah, he had that interest going for him. Now, I do think that it is telling that even the black staff is taking a mundane means of travel to this meeting.

Brian (01:53)
Yeah, and I bet that it's just sort of dumb to go travel on your own to a council meeting under these circumstances when you can drive. And remember how the never never works. Sure, there's probably some route Ebenezer could take that would get him there faster than driving, but it's not that crazy of a drive.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (02:19)
yeah, it's not that crazy of a drive, and we have a hugely biased view of the ways in the never never. The times we've seen Harry use it effectively to get from one place to another, he's either got Bob navigating, or he's navigating using his mother's crystal that was built up from years, decades of travel in the never never. So it's entirely possible that Evan Ezer just doesn't trust his own knowledge to get him there safely or quickly.

Now, one of the things that this leads to is Harry sort of reminiscing to the reader, filling in a little bit of the backstory, about his time on the farm with Ebenezer. And he mentions a lot of hard work, a lot of physical labor getting the stuff around the farm done. And Brian, that it occurs to me, that doesn't sound like a traditional apprenticeship. So what was Ebenezer's goal?

During the few years that Harry actually spent on the farm, say what, four or five years ish.

Brian (03:19)
Well, one thing we know that Harry wasn't learning was magizoology because he doesn't know everything there is to know about vampires or fee or you know all the other magical creatures out there. What we know is that Harry learned

Probably a lot more magic in a lot shorter time than normal from Justin. And Ebenezer wanted to make sure that he left Hoghallow man who was going to use that power for good, and not just a person with power.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (03:49)
Yeah, because if we assume that Harry did get somewhat corrupted by killing Justin, even though it was in self-defense, if we take what the council teaches about corruptive black magic as gospel, as it were, then we have to assume that one of Ebenezer's tasks would be to sort of cleanse Harry of that black magic corruption in the same way that Harry has to sort of

cleanse Molly of the black magic corruption that she got during proven guilty. And a lot of that is sort of resetting the apprentices' expectations and making sure they understand the responsibilities, et cetera, et cetera. It's a big long philosophy course, more or less.

Brian (04:32)
Yeah, and the important thing is we get a lot of hints that it goes beyond that. Because oftentimes during this book, it's going to be hinted that the senior counsel knows some things about Harry Dresden's backstory that Harry himself doesn't know yet. And not only is it important to cleanse Harry of any corruption he got from killing Demore.

It's important to cleanse this potential starborn destroyer of whatever the hell DeMorn was training him to do.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (05:05)
Yeah, and and setting him up to avoid being corrupted in the future, because Ebenezer probably knows he's going to be a target for recruitment by other less savory groups, and he wants to make sure Harry stays in the home team. So setting a solid foundation that prevents him from going down the wrong path in the future seems like another one of the goals that Ebenezer was doing there. Not just a rehabilitation of what Harry had already gone through, but setting him up.

for success in the future.

Brian (05:35)
And that gives Harry this false experience of Ebenezer that that's just what Ebenezer is all about all the time. But Ebenezer is not just a wandering magical sage. He's the blackstaff. And the reason why he's being so dogmatic about why you use power and so

Dead set on the philosophies with Harry is because he already had things go wrong with Margaret, and he knows exactly what Harry could be. So Ebenezer, the sense of betrayal that Harry feel feels towards him in a couple books is compounded by the fact that Harry didn't really get to know how Ebenezer thought about magic outside of this very structured.

Deliberately crafted environment.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (06:23)
Yeah, I think that's certainly right. In addition, I do have one more question for you, Brian. Harry mentions a lot of physical labor that he was doing around the farm. Farms need a lot of physical labor. But when Harry's not around to do all that physical labor, do we think Ebenezer's doing that? Or is every once in a while he's just gonna be like, I don't wanna make an irrigation ditch. Create water. Just like do the spell.

Brian (06:43)
⁓

you know, i I bet that actually the reason why he got the Kenku to owe him a favor is because he needed some, you know, manual labor on the farm. So that's really Ebenezer trades, you know, magical gifts for farm labor.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (06:57)
And it's certainly true he can't really mechanize his farm very much. Okay, so Ebenezer reveals that they're gonna wait in the garage members of the senior council to show. Harry gets upset that Ebenezer is sticking his neck out for Harry. And this section here where they have this argument is

Brian (07:00)
Can't buy a combine. No, no.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (07:17)
apparently all a test because we find out in a few paragraphs that Listens to Wind and Martha Liberty are watching while hiding under veils during this.

But I want to look at this fight that they have from the perspective of Martha and Listens to End who are watching. Before they see this, what do they know about Harry before they get to this particular test?

Brian (07:41)
Well, they know everything up to him being 16 and the years he spends in Ebenezer's, insofar as that was put before the White Council. What they know in this instance is Harry's report that he sent to the council, and one additional thing in Listens to Wins case that we'll get to later. And there's two ways to read the report that Harry must have sent in. One is this is.

Incredibly reckless. He caused an international incident that's going to get people killed out of a fit of pique. And his callousness towards his responsibilities to be a good representative of the White Council and towards other members of the Unseelie Courts has precipitated a war. This guy is a a Or

This guy is so dedicated to principles of compassion that he's utterly dauntless and li willing to throw his life on the line, basically from their perspective, at a moment's notice on a matter of principle. It's a very stark divide.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (08:49)
Yeah, and we know it's number two. Like it's very apparent from being inside Harry's head that he's dauntless and compassionate. But you're right, when you read that report, you're like, well, if if it's exactly what it says in the page, then it's number two. But like it could easily be that this is somebody that's that's number one that's just like exaggerating the truth in order to appear like a number two. And

That's probably what this test is about, to to to force him to reveal his character when he doesn't know other people are watching in a way that will allow them to determine whether it's number one or number two that they're actually dealing with. They trust Ebenezer, but they really need to judge ⁓ from on their own before they make this very important decision.

Brian (09:35)
And one thing that they can strike immediately, so we're really not mentioning it because it's, I guess, a third possible reading, but Harry just immediately makes this clear that it's just not the case, is that he's being completely manipulative. Because this conversation with Ebenezer doesn't make sense if Harry's actually trying to stay alive. He's either reckless and he doesn't care and he's a bad person, or he

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (09:48)
Yes.

Right.

Brian (10:03)
just feels like he's in a bad situation and you know he's he's the compassionate person. He's not sort of snivelling and trying to weasel his way out of it and leaning on his mentor and you know begging for help or whatever. They immediately learn that. And then everything that Harry says, some of it's offensive, but everything he says suggests that he is, perhaps.

Not of the character that they would want ideally in a wizard, but that he's more you know able to be filed under noble stupid.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (10:38)
Yeah, that's a fun alignment that I play sometimes in D D is noble stupid.

Brian (10:44)
Right. As opposed

to, chaotic evil.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (10:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what we actually see him say on the page and what they might draw from that is as conclusions is another thing I wanted to look at. So appears to be pretty arrogant here when he says, I can look out for myself, right? That appears to be a very arrogant statement. Don't help me. I got this.

And we know that that does kind of fit into the through line of the lesson that he has to learn over the course of this book that Will put together at the beginning in that very first chapter, everybody needs help sometimes, and we're here to help you. Now, another way to read this, and I think the way that's fairly obvious is he's mad. He's mad when he finds out that his mentor is going out on a limb for him. And you can really only read that as I care about you.

And I don't want you getting caught in the backlash of what my choices were, right? Go ahead.

Brian (11:38)
And you

can read it as stupid. Because no, you obviously can't look out for yourself.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (11:44)
That's a good point too.

Brian (11:47)
And the next thing that he and Martha Liberty is gonna reference a lot of these things later, but the next thing that I I love that you pulled out, Adam, is him saying, I am not going to suck up to members of the senior council to lobby their votes. He won't trade favors, even if it could put his life at risk. He's not gonna kowtow. Now, on the one hand,

you know, again, stupid and like he impolitique and impetuous. But on the other hand, well, he is principled, isn't he?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (12:19)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm, by the way, refraining from making a dungeon crawler Carl Kowtow reference. If you know, you know. Anyway, the the other one that I pulled out here is that it's clear that he lacks respect for the council, right? And it appears that he kinda gets that from Ebenezer, in addition to obviously getting it from his own personal experiences where they almost executed him. But he quotes Ebenezer as saying,

The whole swill spouting pack of lolly-gagging skunk wallows could transform one another into clams. And so that is just a great line that Ebenezer gets so mad he reveals when he knows they're watching. And then he just starts laughing at the situation. And that's when they reveal themselves. And we get some very interesting evaluations from both of them. Martha then basically details all of these.

flaws in Harry, but then ultimately says, I'll support you. So that's what I want to ask you, Brian. Here's the list of things she says about Harry. Arrogant, bitter, angry, obsessive. He was meant to be something. She says, you know what he was meant to be, he's too great a risk. We'll come back to that in the future. probably capital D destroyer is what she's referring to, but we'll talk about it a lot more later.

But the last thing she says is he is hurt and in great pain. And when he says, actually, my hand's not so bad anymore, she says that I wasn't talking about your f your hand. Right? It's clear she's referring to emotional pain. So all of those things sound like the kinds of things that lead you to the dark side of the force, even in the Dresden universe. So why does she list all of these negative things and then

say, I will support you, Evan Easer. What do you think that's about?

Brian (14:08)
So it's so interesting because the one thing that you didn't mention, because it's not necessarily negative, is she calls him dangerous. And I think that that's actually not a big Everybody expected he would end up dangerous. The only question is what you just brought up: is this leading him to the dark side? Because I think the one thing that

actually gives listens to wind and Martha Liberty, maybe a little bit of a chuckle is when Harry attacks the rest of the council because yes, they're on the council and they show more respect than he does and their senior counselors, but also they're not exactly pleased with the orthodoxy right now and what they probably see as a lack of action over what happened to their fellow council member Simon Petrovic, you know.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (14:58)
Yeah, actually they're

kind of the progressives on the council, so they understand some of what he's saying.

Brian (15:03)
Right. So the fact that he's dangerous isn't necessarily a a deal breaker for Martha. And yes, a lot of the young are arrogant and well he has reasons to be bitter and angry and obsessive is, you know, that's that's not all bad. But he is broken in pieces over what's happened.

this is not someone who doesn't care. This is not a sociopath. This is not a callous person. This is somebody who was absolutely destroyed by a choice he felt like he had to make. He might be principled, he might be stupid, but I can protect an idealistic young starborn. I can't protect one who was.

And and I keep using that word because I really just feel like it's what they're looking for. Does he care? Does he know what's gone on? Does he get it? Because our friend is dead. And Harry's not asking for any mercy. He's saying, just hang me out to dry man. And that the fact that he's so broken up about this and he's not begging for anything, I think drives Martha Liberty to feel like, you know, I can get behind this one.

Do you think it's a fair analysis, Adam?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (16:19)
Do. I think these are really insightful and his current position, right? I think all of that is fair, and I think her conclusion is also fair. I think that's a that you you hit the nail on the head on what she's looking for and what she saw. And that brings us to what Listens to Wind says during his evaluation. But before we get there, we did want to acknowledge that there is something that might be considered offensive in the way that Ebenezer introduces

listens to wind, where he calls him Injun Joe. to be fair, Butcher does stop doing this in future books. The last time he's referred to as Injun Joe is in Ghost Story. From that point forward, all the references to Listen to Wind are to Listens to Wind. That's his name from that point forward. But do you think this was a bad choice in the two thousands, or is this simply something that we've come to see as maybe not as sensitive as it could be

In the year twenty twenty six looking back.

Brian (17:18)
I think what Jim realized is that this series is reaching too broad an audience for him to do what is I think a believable character interaction. So just to be clear, this is not an example of the euphemism treadmill, where, you know, when we first came up with the word idiot, it was a medical term that denoted that someone was below average in intellect in a way that meant they needed to be institutionalized.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (17:31)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (17:48)
But then that became offensive, and we started using it as an insult. And then that became the I-word. But now it's sort of a lower insult because it's been diluted by years and years of separation from the medical terminology. And then notice this happens with a lot of words for intellectual disability. Over time, they shift from a medical term to an insult to a word you're not supposed to say to a lesser insult. Indian or Injun is not a version of that because.

It was wrong from day one, right? America is not India. It would be like if after World War II, we started calling all of the Japanese in Japan, you know, Kazakhs, and the Americans on the military basis started calling themselves Japanese.

If anybody lays c should lay claim to the word American as listens to Wind Hangs a Lamp on, it is the Native Americans. But the point that Jim is making is that Ebenezer is from the 1700s. And Ebenezer knows this is an insult. That's why second time he he uses it when he corrects Harry on how to address listens to wind by saying,

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (18:43)
Yeah.

Brian (18:56)
Injun listens to wind, comes back with a a snide remark in Eb Easier's direct.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (19:02)
He calls him a redneck hillbilly who doesn't read. Yeah. And that's why to me, this has always felt like an in joke, like a like a nickname that they that that he uses with with listens to wind and and that he he he he doesn't mind it. But it's kind of like if if ⁓ you know you were really good friends with somebody that you grew up with and everybody called him fat Tony or whatever, but then if some random person who never met him before tries to call him Fat Tony, he's like, What did you call me? Like it's okay when somebody when somebody says

That you know for a fact it's not personal and it's just joking around and and it's that inside joke that you've collectively built. But when somebody else says it, it can be offensive. That's kind of how I read this. And that's backed up by the fact that Ebenezer is the only one who calls him Injun Joe. Martha doesn't, the Merlin doesn't, Harry doesn't. Out loud, Harry only ever refers to him as listens to Wind. Now, in the narration, Harry will say,

and then Injun Joe said, and then Injun Joe turned into blah blah blah blah blah. And I think this is example of the fact in when you're reading the same thing over and over again, if it's a very long name, it can get very tiresome. So I think this is one of those things where Jim was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He was gonna characterize Ebenezer.

as someone who lived in the 1700s with this backwards way of referring to people, and he was also gonna use it as a narration to sort of shorten the name to make it easier and faster to just read through narration of what was happening in the book. But he slowly moved out of that, and I think it's probably for the better in the long term.

Brian (20:43)
Yeah, I mean you're stuck between a rock and a hard place when you want to have listens to wind as a character because you can't just call them listens. In fact, we have a character named Listen. It's not this one. So and it's because, you know, we in in America do a strange thing with Native American names. We don't just say what the name is, we translate it. Like Searsha Ronan's name means freedom. We don't call her freedom Ronan.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (20:52)
Yeah, we yeah, that's right.

Brian (21:10)
We pronounce the Irish word Searsha. So, you know, that sort of difference, we don't say whatever, you know, listens to Wynne's name is in his original language. We translate it as goes with wolves or whatever. You know, my name means like high or the or like, you know, big thing or something like that. And we don't say that. Like when I'm introduced in another language, they don't translate Brian as the big thing, right?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (21:37)
Yeah.

Brian (21:37)
They just say

Brian. So Jim is trying to to you know sort of show that he has a name within his culture. And this is the way that we in America refer to names in that culture. But also a guy in the 1700s would totally make up another name to call him. And that is a convenient shorthand for me to have in the narration. But he phases that out because.

It is sort of inherently offensive. And even though is sort of acknowledging that in how he's using the terminology, I think he realized at some point that,

There are going to be some people who aren't going to give him the benefit of the doubt, who aren't going to go and look at exactly how he's using it, and are just going to see him writing the word Injun And they're going to justifiably say that that's not okay. And he has less and less of a good response to that the further and further he gets from this scene in book four.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (22:35)
Yeah, and that brings us to Listens to Wind's actual evaluation of Harry, which on the surface appears as though he lets the raccoon decide whether Harry is worthy of support because little brother likes you and Sarah sends her respects. I'll support you, Ebenezer. Now, which one of those two things is doing the heavy lifting in the actual evaluation from Listens to Wind?

Brian (22:59)
Yeah, I think that the whole little brother likes Harry thing is just a confirmation of a choice that Listens to Wind has already made. Tara West told him what kind of man Dresden is, and he listens to Wind is already like, I like this guy. You know, he's he's pretty as long as that's borne out by what he sees, he is on it. But he isn't going to tell anybody.

Who Tara is, or like may he's not gonna tell her story. So he comes up with this kind of other way of doing a a re-evaluation that he does want to do. But the reason why it can be a little bit trivial and it can be just a, you know, a a a test about this animal isn't because, you know, listens to Wind as sort of not making decisions on the basis of considering the facts. It's because he's already considered a bunch of additional facts.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (23:53)
Yeah, that other people just don't have access to. They may have gotten his report on what happened in Full Moon if he submitted one, because me and the council wasn't really involved with that, but maybe he sent one in. But Tara's first hand explanation and judgment of Harry probably matters a lot. And I think honestly, listens to Wind making this appear to be like little brother likes you. You got my support is the kind of dry wit.

That listens to when does show throughout the entire book. like when he says the redneck hillbilly doesn't read. Otherwise, he'd know he can't call me that anymore. Now I'm Native American Joe. Like he makes that joke and the one like I'm the only actual American amongst the senior council members. Those are dry jokes. They're so good. And I love his characterization every time he's on the page.

Brian (24:41)
Yeah, he is awesome. He's extremely funny, but in a very l as you said, dry way.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (24:47)
Diff way different from Harry's like cracking jokes and references. We just we just get really good dry humor from this character and it makes him very different from all the other characters, especially the senior council.

Brian (25:00)
And he doesn't necessarily care if other people laugh at his jokes. You know, they're just for him. They're they're honestly a way for him to let out. We we hear that listens to it as a young man was an angry person. You know, there's the that common sort of thing that sarcasm is a way to, you know, deflect anger that you have. He's make he's cracking jokes because these are things that actually annoy him. And this is kind of how he deals with it, you know, by being very funny. But I love how he says, he murmurs.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (25:06)
Yeah.

Brian (25:29)
The one you knew as Tara West sends her respects, not regards, sends her respects, and that the way he phrases that, I think that makes it very, very clear that Terra West, like we suspected, is a little bit of a bigger deal than she lets on. And when you've earned her respect, he doesn't really need any more information.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (25:38)
Mm.

Yeah, I think that's definitely true.

and that brings us to when Martha delivers the news that Simon Petrovich is dead and there's a hole on the senior counsel.

Brian (26:04)
Now we're gonna put a pin in the Simon Petrovich conversation. Hang on to that, and let's talk about that hole in the senior council and the beginning of the meeting. So Harry, in the beginning of chapter five, convinces Ebenezer to go in first, so they won't be walking in together. And they end up sitting in the same place anyway. They're obviously tied together. So why do you think Jim put that in, Adam?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (26:29)
Well, one of the things that struck me while I was reading this is that we know Harry is in a really bad place right now. We saw that in chapter one. He was yelling at Billy, who was just trying to help him. He was a wreck in the car for hours before he went to see what turned out to be Mab. so throughout all of that, he hasn't

really been able to sleep since that happened. This is all the same day. And now he's learning that his life might be on the line because of what's going on with the senior counsel and that they're gunning for him. And despite all of that, he still has the time and effort and energy to be kind. I don't ⁓ something bad might h if this goes wrong for me, I don't want to it to blow back on you, my mentor. I want to protect you because

If I don't associate with you and things go badly for me, you'll be you'll be better off. Despite the fact that that's probably bad for him, his kindness continues to show through here. That core part of him is still there. Even when he's stressed, low on sleep, and his temper is fraying. He still has that core. And that's an important part to make sure your hero is still likable when you have them in these.

bad situations where they have a short temper and they're yelling at their friends, etcetera.

Brian (27:49)
And I think that Jim makes sure to put this after the main demonstration of Harry's sort of, you know, state of mind with the other senior counselors. Because just from a a doylist perspective, he wants to have this moment with Harry and Morgan alone when they're walking in and Morgan gets to be kind of a jerk because he's setting up a moment that we'll talk about later. But Jim makes sure to give us that excuse.

In a way that tells us, the reader, that Harry is still putting everybody else first. And that's Jim, you know, making sure that we kind of can't miss it. Yes, a lot of people are about to sort of do things for this guy that seem to be beyond the call of duty, but Jim is just reminding us constantly he is worth it. He deserves it. And we, I think, as readers universally, at this point in summer night.

Think it's ridiculous that Harry's going on trial and that we're absolutely with him and he should totally be acquitted, even though he totally broke the law and started a war.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (28:51)
Yeah. And he absolutely looks like a wreck, right? I get secondhand embarrassment reading the description of the way Harry shows up to this thing. Hasn't had a shower in days, wearing like old clothes that probably smell terrible. His hair isn't even combed. He's got bags under his eyes from not sleeping. And he's wearing a bathrobe when everybody else is in formal robes of some kind.

Brian (28:58)
⁓ my god.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (29:17)
I j I get secondhand embarrassment when he does this, and then I am very happy to report that he takes a shower and cuts his beard off and shaves and everything in like two or three chapters, which makes me feel much better about the way he approaches because if he kept going around and tr introducing himself to the queens of fairy in that state, it would just be so much worse. But at this point, the other thing that just

More secondhand embarrassment, but it's funny enough that I'll let it go. Is his mistranslations when he first tries to speak Latin are so good, Brian? I am a sorry excuse, Merlin. A sad long day held me. I need me a different laundress. I I can't I can't even. That's so that's so good.

Brian (30:02)
Yeah, I really find it very clever that Jim makes them feel so much like mistranslations. You know, they do really read like someone badly speaking a language. So I I I love that we get that excuse for Ebenezer to do a lot of the talking on Harry's behalf.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (30:23)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (30:23)
Because it sets a great sort of pace for the scene where we can sort of buy, rather than being rapid-fire dialogue, there's a lot of time for people to sort of look around and take the measure of each other. And Ebenezer, because he is translating for Harry and is sitting next to him, is able to explain to Harry that the Merlin is going to have.

three plans to get him. Famously a plan, a backup plan, and an ace in the hole. and Ebenezer's gonna take care of the first one and help with the second. But that Harry will be on his own with the third. So

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (30:58)
Yeah, and then

when Harry's like, What do you mean? What plan? Hush, hush, pay attention. Like Jim drops it right there, and it's such a good framing for this entire situation. Because without this, it might be a little bit more like episode one of Star Wars, where you're reading the crawl and going, ⁓ trade disputes, huh? the yeah, and there's a blockade. Okay. Yeah, they don't wanna do trade things, huh?

Okay, they bigger tariffs. that's interesting. But instead here you're like, no, here are the stakes and here's what to look for. Like now he's setting you up to a okay, I want to pay attention because I want to find out and figure out what's his plan, what's his backup plan, and what's his ace in the hole. Butcher is priming you to want the answers to those questions so that when you get this big exposition dump and like introduction of like four or five new characters over the course of this, that you're not gonna be zoning out and going, What is going on?

Brian (31:54)
Right. And the Merlin's three plans are left open a little bit to interpretation. So Adam, do you have an answer? What is the plan and what is the backup plan? We know everybody knows what the ace in the hole is.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (32:06)
Yeah,

because in the in the two chapters hence, we get Morgan showing up at Harry's apartment, trying to bait him into attacking with the anticipation of, you know, counterattacking and oops, I accidentally killed him 'cause I had to defend myself and there was a warden outside that could witness the whole thing. And that was when Harry realized, ⁓ you're baiting me. This is this is the Merlin's ace in the hole. That is very explicitly stated in the text, but

The plan and the backup plan aren't explicitly tip stated in the text, but this is best analysis of what's going on here. So the plan, the the main plan, the plan that Merlin thinks is probably going to work, is we're going to get my friend Schneider on the senior council, who's gonna vote my way because I already know the kind of person he is. And that'll give me and LaFordier and Schneider the ability to force a vote on the senior council alone.

And I'm already pretty sure that Ancient Mai is also gonna vote my way, so I'll get to strip Harry of his of of his stole and cast him out of the wizards, and now we can officially send him over to the Reds and end the war and get my way. He thinks that plan is pretty much foolproof, but he you don't get to become the Merlin by collecting bottle caps, so he has a backup plan.

Brian (33:20)
Yeah, he knows that Schneider should end up on the senior council, but he can't be a hundred percent convinced that Ancient Mai is just gonna do whatever he suggests. So you might as well have a backup plan, which is: okay, we'll have an open vote. We'll leave it open to the floor, and we'll let the council as a whole decide. What Merlin does not expect in the least is for there to be a

closed senior counsel vote that he does not control.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (33:51)
Yeah, it does seem like he didn't expect Ebenezer to do this because his his sort of backup plan would it fails because Ebenezer

Does this, right? The backup plan is, ⁓ they'll pick someone else that I can't control, but the other person isn't gonna challenge it and force it into a senior council vote. And I think we can, you know, gaslight or or just use rhetorical arguments in a way to get everybody on our side. So the other thing is how hostile that he is to Ebenezer, who has been around for hundreds of years and was the captain of the Wardens and the current black staff.

You have to imagine that that means that the Merlin has been working with him fairly closely. Now, maybe they don't personally like each other, but the Merlin is politically savvy and usually enough to avoid allowing things to become personal. But when he says to Ebenezer, now, Sotovoce, in English, sort of close so that very not many people will hear it, he says, Go back to your mountain, Ebenezer, back to your sheep.

You are not welcome here and never have been. That seems unusually harsh, and I think it's because Ebenezer is throwing a wrench in his plans that he did not expect.

Brian (35:07)
And it seems like he should expect it. Like, yes, it is true that Ebenezer is not normally one for politics. But he's got a ton of standing in the council. If you're in the know, you know he's the black staff. And if you're not in the know, you know that he was the he's the captain of the Wardens Emeritus. You know, he is the retired guy who leads the strike teams when a big thing goes down in the future.

And in addition to that, we already know that Ebenezer offered to be the person rehabilitating Harry, took him as his apprentice, and therefore has a personal interest in this case. It seems like he's high enough on the age charts that he should certainly be a consideration. He's definitely ahead of Schneider.

So why does this come out of absolutely nowhere to the Merlin? Why does it make him angry and seem foolish? Probably because Ebenezer is breaking of years of precedent by trying to get on the senior council as the Black Staff. And this is a fan theory that that's what he's doing.

But it makes a lot of sense because the black staff already has the license to break the rules. You don't necessarily want that person also making the rules.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (36:30)
Yeah, exactly. The the it makes perfect sense that you don't want to put a ton of power like that in the hands of one wizard. And it would probably be the same thing as like there's probably a precedent that the current captain of the wardens has to retire if they join the senior council because that's just too many hats, too much power, and those should be different branches, different things doing different jobs. So I do really like this fan theory. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Brian (36:59)
And it also clarifies something that sort of it can be inspired by how US government works. If Dwight Eisenhower ran for president, he was gonna win. And he did, right? He won two elections and it was not close. He ran away with it because he was a conquering general who had done a really good job. Well, that's Ebenezer McCoy, former captain of the Wardens. Everybody respects him. The only reason why.

He would not sort of be your instinctual choice for the next senior counselor, is if the general in charge of the armies can't be the president, which is a rule that a lot of countries have. If you are the top wet worksman, if you run the sort of ⁓ sharp end of the spear, you don't get to be the head of civilian government. And by

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (37:50)
Yeah, let's ⁓

you see what that happens when the KGB takes control of the presidency in Russia.

Brian (37:56)
Exactly,

exactly. So it's a sensible policy, and it would explain why the is caught flat footed by something that seems like he should have been able to anticipate. And we're just saying this because the Merlin is supposed to be a very sophisticated operator, but I think this is a little bit of early episode weirdness. If you don't do a little work for him in this instance, he comes out as very short-sighted and easily outmaneuvered.

So he clearly didn't expect Ebenezer to do this, and thought that at the very least he would throw this to a full council vote. And once he can't do that, his whole operation's in trouble.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (38:34)
Yeah. So and if we look at this from the with more evidence of the way that Ebenezer described it, right? Ebenezer will take care of the first plan, help with the second plan, and then Harry will be on his own for the ace in the hole. With ace and the hole, Harry's definitely on his own when Morgan shows up. But what does Ebenezer do? He prevents the senior council from from unilaterally taking over the vote and dooming Harry without anybody being able to stop them by becoming.

on the senior council instead of Schneider. So he just completely blocks that one. Then he helps against the backup plan by preventing the full vote of the council, which almost certainly would have gone against Harry because, you know, they could be easily frightened into what was going on without more context. And

that doesn't fully end it, right? Harry still has to figure some way to make sure that he gets enough senior counsels voting his way. He has to convince the gatekeeper to vote his way in the end. So Ebenezer can only help with that second one. So I think we've pretty much nailed what the plan and backup plan were as Ebenezer saw them, and he was he was able to successfully predict, I'm gonna end this one and help you with the second. And so that's why I think we've got it correct.

Brian (39:48)
And that's supported by how coordinated Martha Liberty, Listens Twind, and Ebenezer are when they block the Merlin's first plan. First, when Merlin is just trying to put forward Klaus Schneider, Martha, you know, just as a point of order, hey Merlin, you know, we've gotta, you know, follow a procedure here. And that's for the Merlin, because the Merlin is all about procedure. But then listens to Wind.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (40:10)
Mm-hmm. Tradition.

Brian (40:13)
He makes an attack on Schneider's experience. A lot of older wizards here. Now that's for people like Ancient Mai. That's for people like Lafortier. That's for the other venerable wizards in attendance. That is for the upper echelon of the council. Hey, this guy's skipping a lot of ranks in this move up the hierarchy. And then right on the heels of it, Ebenezer drops a

Big attack line. You'd intended to shove your favorite down everyone's throats while they were too worried to notice. And that is for the rank and file. And that quick boom, boom, boom, the Merlin doesn't see it coming at all. It completely undercuts what he's trying to do, and he is forced to have Peabody call a role so that we can try to select the correct senior counselor procedurally.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (40:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it shows that the Merlin's not the only one that has the ability to think through these political machinations here. Martha Liberty and Listens to Wind have been around long enough. They know how to do this too. And despite the fact that Ebenezer never really wanted to be on the senior council, he obviously has the ability to work in that same field.

Brian (41:25)
an important thing to note is that at the end of that whole process, Schneider declines to even stand for the position that he's been nominated for. De Merlin thought he had it locked down, but as soon as Ebenezer puts himself forward, Schneider's like, There's no way I'm gonna win against him. Which both suggests that if this wasn't breaking precedent,

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (41:25)
Yeah, yeah,

Brian (41:49)
The Merlin really should have seen it coming. If Schneider even knows, I don't stand a chance if Ebenezer puts his name forward. And it suggests that Ebenezer might have even said something to Schneider.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (42:00)
Yeah. He might have said it ahead of time and said, Hey, you don't really want to deal with all that politics, do you? I'll take it off your hands. Like I don't know exactly what he did to say it, but I it does kind of suggest that maybe there was some coordination there. But it could also be exactly what you said. Like, who wants to run against Eisenhower? Like God, just gonna get creamed. And then if you did have dreams of eventually joining the senior council, then you would have sort of ⁓ already shot your shot. That's no good. Now

Brian (42:28)
Yeah, you don't

want to be the guy who just loses and then is like, pick me afterwards. But what's interesting here is that we don't go directly to the vote because the Merlin is still trying to stack the deck in his favor. And he actually has Warden Morgan provide a tactical assessment of the red court and the general strategic posture before we actually talk about Dresden.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (42:54)
Yeah. And then we also get, and here's our diplomatic attempts to deal with the situation. We need to try to get Summer or Winter on our side. And what's interesting here is that we do get a response from Summer, but we don't get a response from Winter. And Summer basically refuses to st to take sides. They said we're gonna remain neutral. Why do you think that is? Why does Titania not want to get involved in this dispute war between the Red Court and the ⁓ and the White Council?

Brian (43:21)
Well, I think there's a few possible reasons, and one that's kind of very obvious is Titania is not exactly the most visionary leader at this point. She seems a little bit checked out of her job and sort of, you know, doing what she has to do, but she doesn't love being the summer queen. She doesn't seem to embrace her role to the degree that Mab does. But I think it's something more than that because that might also be a consequence of Aurora's death more than it is a truth at this point.

First, both the Reds and the White Council are signatories of the Unseelie Accords so simply siding with one of them might not be an easy thing to do legally. And second, Titania might know that if Summer, who are essentially protectors of mortals, threw in the White Council, who like to think of themselves that way, that it would

Force a counterbalancing by winter. And the council would absolutely lose if MAB was working with the Red Court to bring them down.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (44:23)
Yeah, definitely. There's no question there. So then that raises the question, okay, but MAB does wind up siding, quote unquote, with the White Council, and it doesn't provoke a counterbalance from Summer. So why would that be?

Brian (44:39)
Well, Mab is probably caught in the same position, but even more so. Because Mab is not just a signatory of the Encelia Courts, she is the Encelia Courts. She's the head of So Mab can't be seen to side with one member over the other. The whole thing could come down like a house of cards. However, if Mab was obligated to aid a side,

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (44:50)
Yeah, she's the enforcer.

Brian (45:04)
As a payment for services rendered, well, she's a fairy. I mean, what's she even gonna do?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (45:10)
Yeah, that sounds like the loophole they need to avoid a counterbalance from Summer, because if she's making moves with agency, then Queen Titania has to use her agency to block it. But if she's creating an equivalent exchange, then Queen Titania doesn't have to intervene anymore because there's already a balance. She doesn't have to enforce the balance if it's already there. That really does

ring true to me. But the other thing we get here is that the winter courier has not returned. Put a pin in that, because we're going to return to that in the very next chapter.

Brian (45:45)
Now, before we get to chapter six, Adam, I have to ask, I think that Arthur Langtree, who is called Alfred in this chapter, is supposed to be a very smart and capable leader of the White Council. Ignoring what we know of the future, do his plans seem wise? And is he giving us his actual motivations?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (46:09)
Yeah, that's an interesting question, most charitable interpretation is that he is well meaning, but extra conservative, small c. He really will essentially give up one wizard, give up one life if it means, making sure that the greater good is preserved. He doesn't have any specific principles about life being sacred or anything like that. He

We'll do what is necessary, shoot first, ask questions later, or chop heads, ask questions later. That's the kind of attitude he has. And probably because that attitude has kept the White Council together and in power for millennia now. So to me, he's just got that attitude of it's worked for thousands of years, we've gotta keep doing this.

Anything else is folly. It's risking something s risking disaster for one person, which is like the opposite of Harry, right? We get he he started a war for one soul, and the Merlin like, well, I'll I'll kill one to stop it, right? Totally. so it's it's almost an interesting reverse, a mirror of of Harry in this situation. I think that's the most charitable interpretation of him is he's not malevolent, he is simply

bureaucratic and traditional. Do you think that what we read on the page, that's sort of what I've laid out right there, the obvious text is what's happening with the Merlin, or is there something deeper going on here?

Brian (47:43)
So I think we should sort of analyze that in two ways. The first is that I think Jim is attempting to write somebody who is very realpolitik, consequentialist, utilitarian, he's Otto von Bismarck. He will absolutely manufacture a war if that would be the good thing to advance to the cause that he is the chair of.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (48:01)
Yes.

Brian (48:10)
Or he will stop a war to do the same. The Merlin does not care about war or peace. He's not afraid of war, which I think I think this is a slightly more charitable reading. It's he is risk averse, yes. But he is afraid of putting the council in a worse situation. And if he had to take a risk to put the council in a better situation, he might do that. But he would rather navigate with no risk at all to continue improving.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (48:20)
Yeah. He's risk averse though.

Brian (48:38)
Proving the position of the White Council. And he knows we're gonna have to go to war with the Red Court eventually. And when we do, I want it to be exactly what does happen. Get all the lords of the Adonite in one spot and nuke them from orbit. Just drop the house on them and burn the whole thing to the ground.

And that's the only way he wants to fight this war, and he will not do it under any other circumstances. Now he

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (49:04)
And honestly,

that's the wiz that's the way a wizard would fight a war, right? If a wizard has enough time to prepare, they can be terrifying. But no wizard wants to be caught on the back foot, which unfortunately Harry is quite a bit. But it does make sense to me that that would be Merlin's attitude.

Brian (49:21)
So that might mean that the Merlin is trying to delay this war just so he has the opportunity to be the one who launches the alpha strike that takes out the Red Court. And he might not know how much help the Red Court are getting from presumably the outsiders, but also the Black Council, because as we're gonna get to, that might have just come into the fullness of its being.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (49:47)
Yeah, and we do have evidence for the sort of interpretation that you're describing, because in changes, we see the Merlin walk into what was it, the cafeteria or something where Harry and Ebenezer are talking, and he says, We will wipe them out root root and branch, I believe, is is the phrasing that he uses. Like he clearly, if he had the choice, absolutely would wipe out the Red Court. He just doesn't want to risk

The stability and coherency of the council on rushing into something too hasty. He's a lot like an ent, really.

Brian (50:26)
And I think that two additional points that sort of suggest this interpretation is that one, he seems very willing on multiple occasions to get rid of Dresden specifically. And that suggests that the Merlin might know exactly what Dresden can be.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (50:43)
Mm.

Brian (50:50)
Morgan certainly does and they're close confidants.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (50:53)
Yeah, for for reference, if if you guys are not familiar with the microfiction that was found on Jim's website, go ahead and do a quick search for that online. Dresden Microfiction, there were four or five of those, and one of them is called Journal from Morgan's perspective. And it's the only time I think we've seen not the only time, but the first time we saw a reference to a Capital D destroyer. Morgan refers that Harry could be this destroyer.

We still don't quite know what that is. It probably has something to do with the starborn and the cycle, but it's entirely possible that if Morgan knew about that, that Langtree almost certainly knew about that. And again, he's taking a better better to chop heads ⁓ the an error on the side of caution in this case.

Brian (51:39)
Right. The Merlin's seeing this as you have been offered a trade. You can give us one potential future Dark Lord and receive a bunch of wizards not killed in war. And he's like, This is win-win. This is this is everything I've ever wanted. I conscious free, get to get Dresden killed, which despite

People being compassionate after we found him in the ashes of DeMoren's house. We should have done from the get-go, so that we end this threat. And I preserve my forces for the cycle I know is upcoming because I do know about Starboard.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (52:18)
will push back on one thing there. It's a little short-sighted to say, ⁓ I'll let the Reds get rid of this potential destroyer for me. When one of the ways that the Reds get rid of people is say, hey, do you want immortality? Join us. Like, here's a big weapon that I would like to destroy. It's yours now. Do with it what you will.

doesn't seem like a very wise course of action. And we know they tried to recruit him in just the last book that would have been in Harry's report. And maybe if not, we I think that the Merlin would still know their modus operandi.

Brian (52:59)
and that's why I think it's really clear that the Merlin is caught completely off guard by the fact that the Reds seem to be kind of team outside. I think that is something that he hasn't really countenanced. Maybe he just doesn't know that vampires essentially are outsiders as a rule. Maybe he does know that, but he figures they're the inside outsiders, they're not trying to burn the house down anymore.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (53:14)
Hm.

I got the

impression that nobody knew that until Lara started telling the deep secrets about her family. Yeah. Right.

Brian (53:30)
That's possible too. I mean the Merlin doesn't know everything, so he might

not know that. And if he doesn't know that he's turning Harry over to sort of an outside faction, he might assume, yeah, maybe Dresden survives the change, but he's not gonna last long in Red Court politics anyway, and he's certainly not going to attain the level of power he would if he remained a wizard, you know, fostered by all.

All of the sort of forces arrayed to push him along. Langtree sees Dresden as an unacceptable risk, but he's willing to make him somebody else's problem because he also doesn't see Dresden as being particularly formidable yet either. And that brings us to chapter six, where the Merlin makes a bunch of arguments, though slightly different arguments, through both himself and his mouthpieces.

In front of the council as a whole. The Merlin announces that Dresden is considered a criminal and that the White Council can end the conflict by turning him over. And La Fortier goes on the attack by basically saying, and we should, because he deserves it.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (54:38)
Yeah, and we're gonna take a look at this from a prosecution defense sort of ⁓ position here, because there's a lot of different arguments being made by both sides. And it's important to understand that this debate within that this chapter, chapter six, has roughly two phases. In the initial phase, the prosecution, Team Merlin, LaFortier and Merlin, for the most part,

Will work together to basically soften the ground and say, here's why we should consider handing Harry over to the Reds. And then when the defense, Team Dresden, representing Listens to Wind and Harry and Martha Liberty, kind of point out, like, yeah, but you can't do that. You can't set a precedent of just handing over any one of our members when another ⁓ supernatural faction makes a demand of us. And the the rejoinder to that is.

Well, what if you weren't really a wizard, right? So everything that takes place after that is like phase two of the discussion. But they're still making roughly the same arguments. They're just dodging that one counter-argument from the defense. So let's start. I'll take the prosecution to start with here. LaFordier's first arguments and several of these arguments are: Harry deserves what he gets. He is responsible for his actions. They have a just grievance.

is what he says, and even if he was manipulated into this, he's a wizard. He should have been smarter. He should deserve this. That is the primary thing that LaFortier argues at the beginning of this.

Brian (56:09)
And that's a very cunning argument, especially that last one. He's a wizard, he should have been smarter. It's setting up the pivot to, well, he's not really a wizard, is he? It's a very well crafted thing. And we're gonna come back to that because LeFourtier makes a much, much less clever argument in the future. The Merlin also, almost on his own, makes a a more elder statesman argument that, this is this is terrible.

But it's what we must do. We will protect no one, Wizard Dresden, if we are dead. My interests lie in preserving the health and safety of those upon this council and of the communities of mankind in general. For the sake of humanity. Sacrifice him to the wolves. Exactly.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (56:51)
That's a very high minded Exactly, exactly.

So ⁓ we do get like he deserves it, necessary for the greater good, which is a common trope that's that antagonists will use to attack the good guy. But then we get one more main argument from Merlin, which is he's a bad seed. And like boiling under the surface of this is that, well

He's a starborn and he was meant to be a capital D destroyer and he was under Justin and he's tainted and we can't take the risk that he's not a capital D destroyer. But they don't couch it in those terms, right? 'Cause nobody else is supposed to know about that.

And he tries to prove that he's a bad seed by saying, quote, I remind the council that his appointment to his stole was a de facto decision based on circumstantial evidence. He has never stood trial, never been judged worthy by his peers, unquote. So he's also bringing up a procedural argument, but also saying maybe he was never worthy in the first place.

Brian (57:49)
Yeah, he was bad from the start. Wizard Demorne died. Yes. Whether he was defeated in an open duel or burned in his sleep is another matter entirely. As if that isn't already settled by the trial Harry's already been through. Lafortier is trying Yes, he's trying to poison. You're not allowed to do this in court in America. This is prejudicial evidence. It would be, you know, struck from the record because you can't just

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (58:07)
Yeah, this is like a double jeopardy thing, isn't it?

Brian (58:18)
Bring up Dresden sort of, I mean, you can make an argument here that he's, you know, Dresden's brought into context by bringing it up himself. But the the as a general rule, this is prejudicial. This is already settled, and we're bringing up his past crimes or trials or activities just to smear him. And this is all very clever, which makes it so weird, Adam, that LaFortier makes.

A completely stupid paper thin argument that even Harry laughs at.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (58:51)
Yeah, and it's the ⁓ listen, I don't question his ability with the art. Well, let's leave aside the fact that you're about to in like two more paragraphs, but instead he says I question his judgment, his choices, and then tries to imply that somehow

Because Harry was the apprentice to Justin, and Justin was the apprentice to Simon, that Harry somehow helped the Reds destroy Simon at Archangel, as if a member of the senior council would never change the passwords to his wards after decades and multiple apprentices. By the way, Justin, don't forget to tell my password to all your apprentices in the future. It's an

Absolutely absurd argument, and Harry is right to laugh at it, but you see the rhetorical expertise that LaFortier does bring to it, and he says, ⁓ look, you see the do you see with the contempt he holds the council in his position as a wizard? He tries to turn it around and make it appear as though Harry is laughing at everybody in the room and not the absurd argument. And so this is still like

Part of the he's a bad seed, he comes from bad roots, and that is why he doesn't deserve to be to be a wizard with like the rest of us.

Brian (1:00:13)
in the vote, this idea is not brought up that Harry might have done this. This is pu

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:00:19)
No, when they do

make their vote, they don't use this justification.

Brian (1:00:23)
And it's a smear tactic, and it's for the room at large, and it's not really for the senior council. And those are good Watsonian reasons for the 40 to do it. But Adam, I really do think that Jim had a doylist reason for including this. So let's about Simon Petrovich. So Simon Petrovic is only mentioned in this scene.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:00:39)
What could that be?

Brian (1:00:47)
The outside of the council scene when they are saying, yeah, Petrovich, you know, your friend Ebenezer, he died at Archangel. And then here, this is the only time Simon is mentioned in the series.

So why invent him at all? And why make him Justin DeMourne's master and provide this connection to Harry and to Ebenezer to just have him on one page? And moreover, bringing up his connection to Justin, which didn't have to exist, Jim didn't have to write it that way, is in service of making a bad argument that LaFortier doesn't need to make and that no one brings up during the vote.

Why is Jim wasting lines inventing this connection just to deem it spurious? Because

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:01:33)
it's

because Fitz is time traveling cowl. wait, no, sorry. Simon is cowl, is what you're leading to, yes?

Brian (1:01:40)
Yes, Jim is showing us the Black Council Harry was trained by Justin Dumorne, who is trying to turn him into a destroyer. Who trained him? The council's expert on Redcourt vampires, his master, Simon Petrovitch. When do we first see Cal? At the very end of grave peril.

When do we know that Simon dies? Immediately afterwards, like literally a within year of the mansion being burned down.

if he is used the start of the war, which was clearly being pushed for by the vampires that he's an expert on, to fake his own death so that he could go run the circle, so that he could lead the Black Council, so that he could do full-time necromancer stuff. Now, why do we have to bring this up here?

Because every single time you see Cowl on Page, there's a lot of different ways to analyze who he could be. But there's very little reason for Jim to establish this information about Simon unless he was going to use him as a connection between things like Justin Dumourne the Red Court.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:02:58)
Yeah, that does it's a very convincing Doyleist argument, and I think it's one of the reasons a lot of people have suspected Simon is Cowell. And honestly, if that turns out to be the answer, even though it's the boring answer because everybody already kind of predicted it, I'm fine with it. That's my that's my take.

Brian (1:03:16)
Well look, I mean, I think it's important that your books shouldn't surprise your readers with every revelation. That's what everybody hated about the last couple seasons of like Game of Thrones, right?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:03:28)
Yeah,

not everything needs to be a surprise, but you can have some surprises, like when Harry gets summoned to Hades and he reveals that this has all been a setup and like he's in on it and he didn't even know. Or at the end of Skin Game when it turns out Gray has been working for him the whole time. Skin game's a good example of these, but there are plenty of places where the reader goes, ⁓ wow, I did not see that coming, right?

So if Jim sprinkles those in, but also sprinkles in a bunch of foreshadowing that lets you predict what's coming next, that's okay too.

Brian (1:04:00)
You want there to be a payoff for things like who is Jon Snow's mother, right, in the Game of Thrones universe that is plot relevant and that maybe people can predict so that when you pay it off, they feel smart.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:04:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brian (1:04:18)
That's

a good thing for your readers to feel. So, Jim sort of giving us some evidence here so it doesn't seem like an ass pull out of nowhere in the future would be a good thing. And Jim kind of making an answer that does feel like it comes out of nowhere would not necessarily be a good thing. There's a lot of space in between those two poles and certainly this is not the last word we'll say on the subject of Cal.

But since this is where they talk about Simon, we have to have that mentioned here. So back to the trial, Adam.

in addition to these arguments made by the Merlin and Lafortier, it also seems like Ancient Mai is edging towards a guilty verdict.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:05:01)
Yeah, specifically when she does cast her vote, she says, quote, No wizard should blatantly misuse his status as a member of this council, nor should he be as irresponsible as Harry Dresden has been with his use of the art. I vote against his retention of wizard status, unquote. Now, she is making a he deserves it argument there.

Right? He's irresponsible and he misuses his status. His judgment is bad. Like he doesn't deserve to be considered a wizard because of this. So she's making a very similar argument to the rest of them. But that brings us to Team Dresden and the defense. And their main arguments here is he's clearly a wizard. I mean, look at all the shit that he did.

Brian (1:05:45)
Right. And they mean that in two senses. First, they mean as Harry says, sorry, here I was figuring we had a responsibility to protect people. What was I thinking? Like, guys, he did what we would want a wizard to do, but also on a deeper level, he's a wizard, and therefore you shouldn't vote.

To strip him of his status on some technicality. He's a member of this council, and turning him over, no matter how we procedurally justify it, is turning over a wizard. And they can make that argument that we shouldn't compromise this principle because they say both that Harry was justified in his actions.

And we should want this war.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:06:31)
Yeah. And we get a couple of interesting takes here. And it just occurred to me, Listens to Wind makes the argument, quote, peace cannot be bought, Aileron, referring to LaFortier. History teaches this lesson. I learned it. You should have too, unquote. And Harry then elaborates on that and says, he was referring to the Trail of Tears and what the Native Americans went through and what we tried to do with Hitler and how it never works. You can't

Buy peace from someone who will have war. But it sounds an awful lot like the argument we'll hear from the gatekeeper in a few minutes, which we're gonna talk about, where he basically says, This war is happening or going to happen. A temporary peace does not change the fact that we will have to fight a war with the Reds. And so if you're thinking, Merlin, that this is a permanent peace that you're buying, that's

That's a bad judgment, right? And that's kind of what listens to wind is saying here.

Brian (1:07:28)
Yeah. And in addition to the argument that we shouldn't try to buy peace, we shouldn't even be in that business. Listen to Wind also says, My instincts about this man tell me that he comports himself as a wizard should. Listens to win to saying, not just we should be fighting this war, but also we should we should be, you know, happy about this guy. And that

builds off of Ebenezer's character evidence and the notion that I think we can attribute to a certain extent to Martha Liberty that because she puts this he's the wizard, you know, in the second sense on the table, we cannot simply hand over one of our own to the Red Court because of their demands. It's not about whether he deserves it.

Arguments against Dresden personally shouldn't even matter.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:08:22)
Right.

And then we do have one more argument from Martha that kind of fits into the it's a good war category, which she says, this is not a solution. It is merely an action. And that is a statement that is important to recognize that sometimes when there's a problem and you have a group of people discussing how to solve it, sometimes one of the things that gets brought up is, Well, we've got to do something. And

Yeah, okay, but doing the wrong thing is often more destructive than not doing something. And that int that intense desire to do something about a problem is something that you have to fight against. And you have to look for a real solution, not just an action that will make you feel better about doing something.

Brian (1:09:09)
And when the gatekeeper comes in to join the fray, he is framed as something of a neutral judge.

But he sort of says a lot of things that align with Team Dresden. I mean, his first argument is it rained toads this morning. Adam, what do you think about that? Pretty compelling.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:09:27)
Absolutely. I mean, I the thing is that's not gonna sway the younger wizards. They just don't know enough about what that means. But the older wizards are gonna hear that and go, Yes, I see. What he's saying is we should vote against. No, obviously that's a stalling tactic from the gatekeeper. And I think he wants to maintain his sort of enigmatic personality because while he says that, and then we get this great line that where he kind of puts the Merlin in his

Place know, he

It rained toads this morning and then nothing happens. And it Harry describes it as a baffled silence. And it came became a moment later a baffled mutter. and then Merlin says, Gatekeeper, how do you vote? And the gatekeeper says, with deliberation. And that feels like a slap down of the Merlin. Like, let me think on this very important choice, you moron. evidence that needs to be considered here.

Brian (1:10:23)
And as much as we were being facetious, it kind of is building on Martha Liberty's argument. This is just an action. It rained toads this morning. Harry's already told us what that means. The Merlin should care.

Why are we even discussing this? It rained toads this morning. That's the bigger issue, isn't it? It seems ridiculous, but really maybe it is.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:10:49)
Yeah. And like like I said, I always kind of interpreted that as he's buying time because he's about he's he knows the messenger is about to show up with the with the important message from Mab that he can use to create this opening for Harry to get himself out of this situation via the trial that we're about to experience. But he's got to

wait until we get there, and it's very similar to what we see from him in proven guilty, where he clearly stalls until the rest of the senior counsel shows up with Michael, and that helps Molly at her trial. So we've seen this now twice from the gatekeeper, and it it doesn't t it doesn't take nearly as long here, but that's the moment that that the messenger shows up with a message from the Queen.

Brian (1:11:34)
Wait wait a second, wait

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:11:35)
⁓ okay.

Brian (1:11:35)
Right. And it makes

sense that that's what he's stalling for, because as we've already suggested, it seems like he's working together with Mab to set this whole thing up. He probably has some advanced notice that this is coming, and he actually has a reason to use stall tactics. But I think it's more than just that, Adam. Because while he's stalling and he's putting the Merlin in his place.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:11:45)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (1:12:00)
He is very subtly framing his analysis of the situation in a way that means Mab is going to ultimately get her way. Because when it comes to Wizard McCoy, who is clearly biased, the gatekeeper says, I respect your choice when analyzing his vote. But when it comes to LaFordier, he says.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian (1:12:24)
Your concerns are understandable. And if correct, Jasden poses a major threat. Likewise, with ancient Mai, your fears are justified. He's not giving them any sort of factual analysis. When he's talking on the subject of their fears, of their worries, of their concerns, he says to the Merlin on the subject of his vote.

You believe that if he is removed, so will be that danger. Your fears are understandable, but not reasonable. He's systematically sort of saying, without directly confronting everybody, that to act in fear in this situation is to be without reason. about the hardest you can flame a wizard.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:13:11)
Yeah. And they're acting with these choices that are like you don't have a lot of evidence to to go one way or the other, right? And so he has to say we need some way to determine whether those fears are correct, whether LaFortier's concerns about Dresden loyalty and his ability are correct. And that's what brings us to the actual trial itself. But he specifically shuts down the Merlin and says

You don't even have a justi a good justification here because the Merlin's argument of we get rid of this guy, we'll get rid of the war is not reasonable because the gatekeeper can study history too.

Brian (1:13:50)
Yeah, and man, the gatekeeper is so manipulative. He acknowledges that Harry knows how to listen to and casts a spell to muffle their voices to eavesdroppers. And the gatekeeper asks him, Has Mab chosen an emissary? Now, Adam, why does he ask this question? Is he just playing dumb?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:14:13)
It might very well be that he's playing dumb. If he's working directly with Mab on this, then yes. If he's not, he might highly suspect that Mab has chosen emissary, and so he's confirming it with Harry. But this may also be a test, right? When Harry is hanging from that tree after he gets away from the the spell that should have killed him, but he slips out of

Elaine's bindings and he manages to survive anyway. And the gatekeeper shows up and says, You've passed your test, you don't have to do any more, but are you going to continue? And Harry says yes, and the gatekeeper reveals that question was also a test. If you said if you did not say that you were going to continue, I would have killed you on the spot. So answering a question

That the gatekeeper poses is a very dangerous game. So here, when he's saying, has Mab chosen an emissary? What he's really trying to test is, I'm pretty sure Harry, or I know that Harry is the emissary that Mab has chosen. What I'm testing is, is he gonna try to weasel out of this responsibility or is he going to embrace it? It's the same test that he does later when Harry's in the tree, but this time it's just to establish: am I gonna vote?

To try to even give him a chance. Later, that question in the tree, he has to actually prove his quality. He actually actually has to prove that he takes his responsibilities seriously and doesn't just hand them off at the first opportunity. So this is step one to getting us to that particular spot at the tree. They're both important tests that the gatekeeper is giving. That's why he asks this. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense why he's asking this.

Brian (1:15:53)
And there's one other little wrinkle, which might be that the gatekeeper knew Mab would name Harry Emissary, but would Harry pass Mab's tests? And if Harry answers this question in the negative, he's either lying, or he failed to even realize he was the winter emissary, or Mab didn't bother to let him know.

And in any of those circumstances, just take his head right here, guys. We should just start over from you know scratch on this one. But because Dresden confirms that he is the winter emissary, I think the gatekeeper's mind's made up. And that's part of why the courier returns half frozen, as if Mab was willing to smite him on the spot. This is more theater actually.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:16:46)
Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is. Cause why would you do that to what is apparently a diplomatic envoy? I mean, one's thing you could say wizards are arrogant, maybe they sent the wrong guy and he insulted Mab somehow and got himself, you know, half frozen as a result. But yeah, I think it's more theater. They want this to appear spontaneous, not like it was pre-planned.

Brian (1:17:10)
And they want it to appear that the council is risking Mab's extreme ire if they do not comply. You know, she's already had it up to here with you wizards and your wizardy wizardings, right? And if that's how Mab feels, well, you know, that's gonna make the Merlin think, okay, I don't really want the winter court to be openly against me. And it's gonna

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:17:25)
Yes.

Brian (1:17:38)
open Harry maybe to being allowed to take this role. And it seems to work, Adam. It works on everybody except the Merlin, apparently.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:17:49)
Yeah, his reaction to the sort of proposal, the compromise that the gatekeeper provides here is a little bit it's it seems seems frustrated at the very least. But what's interesting is, like you said, he takes on this role of judge, like, I'm I'm the tie-breaking vote, I have to consider very carefully what I'm doing here. And his proposal addresses basically everybody's concerns. If the concerns were genuine, then

They shouldn't have a problem with his proposal. So, for example, he says, listen, if Harry's able to complete this test, that should lay to rest LaFortier's concerns over his ability. And that's true. That's blatantly true. This is clearly a test that having good wizarding skills is going to help him with. Ancient Mai should accept that he is willing to accept responsibility for his mistake, and I love the way.

that the gatekeeper puts this, quote, it should satisfy your concerns as to his judgment. To make the mistakes of youth is no crime, but not to learn from them is. Unquote. And that is a great way to put this, and Ancient Mai can't help but agree to this, maybe even thinking, Yeah, but I don't think he's gonna be able to pass this. He's gonna prove that I'm right about him and that'll be that, right? And

When he talks about the Merlin's concerns, he points out that if Harry is successful, that quote may do much to alleviate the pressure of the coming war. The coming war, Gatekeeper is not leaving this up as a possibility. He's basically already on team. This is a certainty, and we need to act like it is.

Brian (1:19:34)
Yeah, he says if this places the Red Court at a severe enough disadvantage, it may even enable us to avoid the war entirely. But it doesn't appear that he really believes that. He's catching it in a lot of hypotheticals. I think he's trying to convince the Merlin to give Dresden a chance, but it doesn't work because Morgan tries to kill him.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:19:58)
I think that might be true, but I think he's also countering the Merlin's argument for the rest of the council, right? He's d he's he's addressing it for the audience, not necessarily for the Merlin himself. I maybe it's both, but I think the primary audience there is the rest of the council. He's trying to point out that this compromise solves all of the concerns from every party, essentially.

And I think you're right. I think the Merlin doesn't get what he wants here, which means that his main concerns were not the ones that he stated out loud. He wasn't as concerned about the war as he says and like putting an end to it, it is the important thing. Like that that maybe was more of a smoke screen, since he apparently is frustrated by this compromise that should put those concerns to rest.

Brian (1:20:50)
Right, because maybe he thinks the thing that really is for the greater good is to get rid of this eventual starborn destroyer. But Harry accepts the trial when the vote allows it to be offered to him. And that takes us to the end of the chapter and the end of this episode.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:21:09)
Yeah, we've got one more piece to talk to you guys about. But before we get there, next episode, we've got chapters seven, eight, and nine. That's where Harry goes to Murphy to get her help on this whole murder mystery, since she's, you know, a homicide detective. Then we meet Elaine in Harry's apartment, and then Morgan bursts in while Elaine is there, and then she has to hide, and Harry has to avoid the Merlin's ace in the hole. But before we get to there, we've got one more piece of this episode. It's our question.

For Bob.

Brian (1:21:41)
Bob, if say someone I knew, a friend, had to skip a white council meeting, what's the best excuse?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:21:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, Bob, he's an expert at giving excuses, as we know on this show, and right now he said he's tracking down some of Murphy's antique furniture. Something about Doilies. I don't understand why that's a high priority.

Brian (1:22:02)
Well, I mean, you know, maybe he just thinks it'd be a nice gift for Harry.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:22:05)
Yeah, he doesn't he's not an expert in that realm for sure. But okay. What we did do is ask all the people on the Reddit who came to aid with some really great answers, Brian. And I I wanna give Powder Kager one a congratulations. they had the highest upvoted answer with long conjuritis. Yeah. You Yeah, you don't want somebody with conjuritis at

Brian (1:22:06)
Yeah.

Brilliant, brilliant. You can tell we're in a post pandemic universe.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:22:34)
the senior council meeting. Can you imagine the chaos if one person, not much less like two or three, showed up with conjuritis?

Brian (1:22:41)
Well, also, I mean, you know, that's that's a vector situation. You've got one person showing up with conjuritis soon, the whole council's got conjuritis. Now

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:22:48)
Yeah. That's true.

Brian (1:22:50)
Best Acanthysida sixty three seventy nine simply states Hibernation as a bear.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:22:56)
That sounds incredibly restful. You're gonna wake up from that feeling like a million bucks.

Brian (1:22:59)
Pretty clever. Transform

right back and you won't have to sleep for a month.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:23:04)
Yeah, definitely. And the next one we have number three, Bouquet of Ashes says out hunting the squonk. It's a cryptid from Pennsylvania. It's so ugly that it cries itself to death if you catch it. And number one, I feel such kinship with the poor little guy. I must protect him. And number two, since it's a cryptid and it dissolves itself in its own tears, I presume they have magical properties that one might find useful for research. As a wizard, for research purposes.

Brian (1:23:32)
Yeah, in the Dresden Files the Squonk is definitely like a sasquatch on the depression path.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:23:38)
Yeah, okay. That makes sense.

Brian (1:23:42)
But ⁓

I I I feel like that would go over well with the rest of the council. Now, pub for the win says the magic delay lines near my house shifted. Now all my words are out of whacked, and I'm locked in my own house. Sorry, this is gonna be an all day thing to fix.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:23:59)
Couldn't have seen it coming. Those ley lines, they just shift whenever you just you never know. All right. Aaron Wilde said, Rip Van Winkled. Very simple. Sleeping for a hundred years.

Brian (1:24:09)
Sort of an advanced,

yeah, advanced version of the bear hibernation, but you know, not done consensually. an XP Dolphin says solar harvesting. I'd leave it up to them to figure out what I meant. He he

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:24:13)
Yeah.

Aaron

That's the cleverest

one because you get things like pyramids sitting, and they don't explain any further than that.

Brian (1:24:27)
Yes, and I do like that one because it could just be solar panels. He could just be learning about solar panels. Adam, those were the top six answers as voted on by the subreddit, but there was a lot of answers on this one. Did you have any other favorites you wanted to mention?

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:24:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, I did have a couple of other of personal favorites. Hawk not ewe said magical backlash from trying to control New England weather. And ⁓ I gotta tell you, Brian, as a ⁓ fellow New Englander myself, I c I can I'm in this picture and I don't like it.

Brian (1:25:01)
Yeah, no, this is definitely one of those things where there's no ritual circle, you know, well prepared enough to allow this spell to succeed. You're you're screwed from the start and the backlashes. It's gonna make you miss the whole day. Yeah, exactly.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:25:11)
Yeah, it doesn't matter how many diamonds and rubies you include. New England weather's gonna get ya.

this is a total aside, but I swear to God this is a hundred percent true. On Friday, I was about to go to some friends pla a friend's place to hang out, and I was like, I had a light dinner. It's a nice day outside. I'm gonna stop for ice cream at that good place that's on the way. I left my house, the sun was shining.

Two and a half minutes later, the first rain started falling. Two and a half minutes after that, it was drenched downpouring. The rain was coming in sideways. I was like, well, can't even really use my umbrella against sideways rain as I drove past the ice cream place. A quarter of a mile down the road, the rain stopped. And so I was like, huh, okay, maybe I can get ice cream. And I turned around and I went back. It was still raining at the ice cream place.

And then when I got to my friend's place, which was like five minutes away, sun was shining again and the birds were s it was the most bizarre thing ever. And it definitely felt like, Yep, I'm in New England.

Brian (1:26:17)
I believe they call that a squall. And as somebody who spent a couple years up in Boston, I will say that the days where you go outside wearing shorts and then it hails were not my favorites.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:26:31)
No, no. Snow with lightning behind it is the is the way my favorite version of Thunder Snow. Yeah. All right. Anyway, what were what were some of your favorites?

Brian (1:26:35)
Yeah, thunder snow. Yes, exactly. Thunder snow.

Well, I loved from the YouTube channel Woolgreath, deep delve searching for Atlantean relics in the never never. I was like, ⁓ perfect. You know, that makes total sense. That's definitely real in the Dresden Files, right? Like Atlantis wasn't a real place, guys. It was a metaphor. Come fight me. But human belief makes things real. So you could totally do it in the Dresden Files. And then Woolgreath also said, if there's a second day.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:26:59)
Ha ha.

Brian (1:27:08)
Can't come. Explosive decompression from searching for Atlantean relics in the never never. Brilliant. Everybody knows how those undersea expeditions go.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:27:13)
Ha ha ha.

Absolutely. Then we have one from Big Ugly Chef says he's still trying to unread that book. That's so good. It's just so vague and puzzling. It's like, yeah, I there w it's And it definitely speaks to the he's sleeping off that potion like we got from from the actual book itself.

Brian (1:27:24)
that's so good.

it's a love craft but funny.

And I liked another one in that vein. A literal moth says lost in a book. Literally, the book was magical. Get me out. Yeah, exactly.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:27:47)
Yeah, we've seen yeah, we've seen that movie in the nineties.

now, Wallname Liability said stuck in a game of wits with a super intelligent shade of blue. d I

Brian (1:27:58)
You really

liked the bizarre ones, and they're all bangers, let me tell you. Like the it sounds like a wizard for sure. I am a big fan of the sort of, you know, relying on the the Laura drops, of course. An idiot platypus says, Mothman gave me a warning. Can't go anywhere, he's trying to warn you about the bridge.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:28:03)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I got another one from Cheap Dialogue that said that just very simply said hot dog fingers. And I couldn't help but think about the scene from Everything Everywhere All at Once, where she accidentally jumps into a universe where everyone has hot dog fingers, and it's so hilarious. And then I started thinking of a wizard accidentally turning their fingers into hot dogs and being unable to fix it because they have hot dog fingers. And boy, that's a great excuse.

Brian (1:28:47)
Yes, the

The only way I can see this actually working is if it means you can't hold the foci you need, but still shame on you for you know not being able to do the spell mentally. Hellebras says my only clean robes are my sky clad ones. And if you don't know what that means, you can look it up.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:29:04)
Yeah.

Yeah. And the last one that I have on the list here is

Oster Toaster Eye says currently incorporeal. Well, technically could attend, but nobody would see or hear me, so my vote wouldn't matter.

Brian (1:29:14)
Yes, loved it.

Absolutely loved that one. Currently, because that's one of those things where it's like, ⁓ what's your defense against this ⁓ this murder charge? Insanity. ⁓ then you're gonna go away forever. Uh-uh Temporary insanity. You know? Currently incorporeal, you know? ⁓

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:29:31)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yes, exactly.

Brian (1:29:36)
And I loved also Haunted Cemetery, who gave a great solar harvesting joke about a field full of hankies, also said, made three jokes about Mab in a row. Yeah, you won't be going anywhere for a while, buddy.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:29:45)
Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. Now I did come up with one of my own before I looked at this. cursed by a saint is my own personal addition to this. I really like that. Doesn't have to be a Lugaroo, but just I like the idea that sometimes the saints just cursed people and therefore ⁓ maybe a wizard was cursed by a saint and that's why you can't come to the council meeting.

Brian (1:30:08)
No, joining in a venerable tradition there. We do know it happens. Now, I of course ⁓ said you know, I'm very forgetful. so why wouldn't I come to the council? Misplaced Pandora's box. You know what happened the last time, you know, yeah, exactly.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:30:19)
You can't just leave that. Yeah, no. You gotta

just can't stop looking for it until you find it, really. All right. That's that's gonna be it for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. next week's question for Bob. Should Elaine have taken Harry's advice and revealed herself to the council in this book? Because that's kind of what is heavily implied the end of chapter eight, when Harry

almost convinces her to come out to the council and reveal her existence right before Morgan smashes on the door and scares the bejesus out of her by almost killing Harry. But I just wanna know what could have been.

Brian (1:30:56)
Well no

No, she shouldn't have Adam because she's a necromancer named Kumori and that'd get her in a lot of trouble.

Adam "Bridger" Ruzzo (1:31:03)
We may have to ⁓ couch this in several caveats in order to get different answers. But we'll see you all next time for that caveat edition.