Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Baloreilly (00:00)
Welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory. I'm Brian O'Reilly? That feels weird to say. And Adam Ruzzo is joining us in the normally vacant producer's chair because he's dialing in from a beachside vacation this week. Adam is waving, folks. He misses you already. But fear not, you don't just have to listen to me prattle on for two hours because this is a very special episode of RNT. It's the first in our

New Reader Reaction series, where we interrogate one or two new readers foolish enough to appear on this program.

Before I break my promise about prattling, let me introduce those readers. So our first apprentice prepping for White Council admission is Charlotte. Joining us from St. Louis, Charlotte and I have been friends for almost 20 years now, God.

She's a brilliant lady, married to a total badass with a beautiful new baby, and more importantly for our purposes, an extremely astute reader with an awesome breadth of literary experience under her belt, including a fair amount of fantasy titles. I can't thank her enough for joining us with her intelligence and insights. Charlotte, how's the baby? How's your husband? are you?

Charlotte (01:23)
Baby and husband are doing great. Hopefully you don't hear the baby in the background. She should be going to sleep momentarily. don't know if I'm gonna be able to live up to that introduction, Brian. That is very flattering. But yes, ⁓ we have known each other for 20 years now, but I... ⁓

Yes, I do have a fair amount of experience reading fantasy, a lot of Stephen King ⁓ as well. That's recently what I've been picking up on. Brian and I have also played Dungeons and Dragons together on a couple of occasions. So that's what I bring to the table and excited to be here.

Baloreilly (01:55)
Yeah, Charlotte's TTRPG experience is not to be overlooked, folks. And that's wonderful to hear. thank you again for being with us. then last, but certainly not least, I am least in this scenario, Patrick, joining us from Queens, New York, about 20 minutes away from me. Patrick is my brother, so I've known him for a little while, too.

also brilliant and his partner is a very lucky girl for nabbing the most dedicated cat dad I know. Patrick's here because I literally cannot think of anyone more qualified to talk about fantasy literature and world building. Not only is he a voracious consumer of all types of fiction, he knows the fantasy genre as a whole extremely well. TTRPGs, fantasy gaming, basically anything where you've got magic making trouble for your verisimilitude. Pat.

How was your trip to Pennsylvania? How's your partner? the cats?

Patrick (02:49)
Hey, Brooke. We're We're good. The cats got to experience, well, one of them's first road trip and they handled pretty okay. we got back to having a power outage and a tanked fridge, which I spent this afternoon fixing, which has been great. it's working again. So my drinks are cold and I'm happy to be here about fantastic book series you put me on.

Baloreilly (03:12)
In my script it says that's wonderful, that sounds, the fridge thing sounds really gross actually.

Patrick (03:16)
It

was unfortunate to come home but it's fine now.

Baloreilly (03:19)
And

So guys were provided with these questions beforehand, And the first thing we asked you.

was to compare Stormfront to other books you've enjoyed. Like give it a one to five star rating among your favorite books. Just overall thoughts, how good of a book is Stormfront? Pat, putting you on the spot first.

Patrick (03:40)
Comparing it to other books I've enjoyed, so I've read a lot of fantasy growing up, like Charlotte mentioned before, and you as well, I've read a lot of Stephen Dark Tower series was very formative for me growing up, Eddings was very formative for me growing up well, recently, lot of Warhammer fantasy, Warhammer 40k. On a scale of one to five, I put it at probably a three and a half to a four, I found it very fun.

You know, it's very much an homage to...

to like a detective genre to that mystery genre and a wonderful blend of fantasy. So I really enjoyed it. does make me want to read more, but it definitely has a bit of a first time writer stigma attached to it.

Baloreilly (04:22)
Yeah, for you it felt really like a first novel, but three and a half to four stars, pretty strong first novel.

Patrick (04:30)
Yeah, I'd say I'm a sucker for the genre which may be coloring my rating. I do love a good mystery story. I love good fantasy elements. You know, if horror is going to be a lot more critical, might bump that rating down. But as of right now, I think three and a half. It made me want to read more. I had a good time. It didn't overstay its welcome.

Baloreilly (04:48)
Charlotte, how about you?

Charlotte (04:49)
So I am wary of grade inflation, so I would, I think, give it a solid three, which means that I did very much enjoy the book. ⁓ I've been reading a lot of nonfiction lately, and so it was fun to step away from reading things about Enron and finance and get into a mystery novel about a crazy wizard. Like Patrick,

I am also a sucker for genre. I'm a huge sucker for mystery genre. So the fact that it was a noir like this was really, I found delightful.

I am excited to read more. did enjoy it enough that I think I want to learn more about this world and these characters. I could see it being almost a monster of the week type of storytelling, ⁓ except that I've been told that there's apparently a lot more lore and a broader universe that comes into it. So that intrigues me.

Baloreilly (05:44)
Yes, I did have to confess to our new readers that there were actually 17 books in the series, before I roped them in. So I'm sorry for spoiling that much for them. But to be fair, they could just Google it. So that sounds like a fairly positive review. most people will tell you, Charlotte, that Stormfront is actually one of the weaker books in the series. As it goes on, in general, it gets better.

So when you say that you're looking forward to reading more, are we at like a, my God, that sounds amazing, can't wait to start five, or are we at more of a like, yeah, I mean, I might need to take some time before I pick up the next one.

Charlotte (06:24)
I actually am at a five. I'm excited to keep reading this. I'll say it's very easy reading. It's fun to read. It's sippy. And so I'm not looking at it like, my gosh, I have another novel I have to slog through if I wanna keep being on this super fun genuinely am forward to reading more of it. And I will say the idea that it improves. I'm glad to hear it's the writing. I agree with Patrick was a little bit clunky in some spots.

So I could see that if that skill improves, but the universe kind of stays the way that it is, then I think I'm in for a treat.

Baloreilly (06:59)
Yeah, I do think that you're actually touching on something that's very interesting there, where it's an easy read, even though at parts, the writing isn't what you would for in the best kind of fantasy fiction work you could imagine. I do think that that's a, it's a strange combination of attributes.

But I do think that that is true of Stormfront. ⁓ Pat, how about you? Where are you on the seeing, how soon do you want to read the next one?

Patrick (07:30)
kind of flipping mine and Charlotte's scores from before where she's at a five now, I'm probably about a four. And again, that's not a mark against the series. That's not a mark against the writing. I am excited to read more, but it was one of the things that I read and I was like, that's really good. And I have a lot of questions about certain areas of the book and I am curious. But then once I had put it down and had time to think about it, I'm like, I want more, but I'm not.

Depending on how the writing goes, I'm not super hungry for it yet.

Baloreilly (08:00)
Right, okay, yeah, a little bit more of a wait and see. That makes sense. So, are there any books that you've read recently or just ever that you think are a cool comparison for

Charlotte (08:12)
Yes, so what kept coming up for me is the movie Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, which is also one of my favorite movies of all time, because this, while that is a noir with Robert Downey Jr., this is essentially a noir with a wizard. it seemed like that was kind of attitude or tone that this was trying to capture as well. A little bit zany, a little bit clever. I don't know if all of the jokes necessarily landed, but that

That was what I kept coming back to. especially the, something that character says that they literally read mystery novels in that one of the things he says that he loves is that it's two cases at the beginning, and then by the end it turns out that they're the same case. Well, that's exactly what happens in this. And so I love that trope personally. I think that's always fun to see.

when you have two cases introduced, well, obviously these are going to intersect. So how is that going to work? So I thought it was executed well here and that kind of sticking with me throughout reading it.

Baloreilly (09:12)
Yeah, now all I can think of is Dresden saying, ⁓ you know, when his landlord asks him for the bills, you know, I'll get you the residual soon. I invented dice as a kid. They're coming. I think that's actually a fair comparison because that is very modern noir feel, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

Charlotte (09:22)
you

Baloreilly (09:30)
to Lucky Number Slevin. think both of those have kind of the comic sensibility that's been modernized in a way similar to Stormfront. they also three homages to literally pulp fiction. So we're gonna get into, I think, the...

slightly more detail oriented questions here about the book specifically. So we're going to stay a little broad at first. Charlotte, when it comes to the plot of Stormfront, we were just talking about how it's two cases in the beginning, they come together at the end. Does it actually work as a mystery for you? Did you like enjoy the twists, the setup, the payoff, or do you feel like that part of it didn't land as well?

Charlotte (10:17)
I'm always trying to get ahead of a mystery writer when I read a mystery. And this one, I actually was not doing that because engrossed in actually just what Harry was doing and where he was going. So the plot really worked for me from that sense in he's doing so much weird stuff that you almost, the mystery is kind of the background to that a little bit of just him showing off his

methodology, all of these different characters. So in that sense, I don't know if the mystery works under very strict scrutiny, but for me it did. I enjoyed the payoff at the end that it was Victor. I wasn't ahead of that as I probably could have been, but at the same time, I like that it wasn't out of nowhere because that is also a huge pet peeve of mine for a mystery where...

well, it was actually this other side character. And that's because of this whole other thing that was going on that we never alluded to in this entire book that you just spent 200 pages reading that I cannot stand. And this one, I do think that the ⁓ the stage was set for where it to be the third eye and what was going on with Monica and everything. So I think it coalesced nicely in the ending.

Baloreilly (11:33)
I'm really happy to hear you say that because that was actually something that we discussed in one of our early episodes that like the fact that it's not an ass pull, that it doesn't come out of nowhere is a credit to the book, even if you can on a reread sort of see it coming especially. But that's really interesting that you felt like the fantasy elements actually helped cover the mystery elements. I think that's a really, that's very true. That's

Pat, how about you? Did you think it worked as a mystery?

Patrick (12:03)
Yes, I did. I have to agree that I feel like the fantasy covered for the When I first started reading it, had it in my head. was like, it's Victor. Obviously, it's the missing piece. It's going to be one of those. And about halfway through, I was convinced that, OK, so it's obviously Voodoo and the drugs are maybe being produced by, where does Voodoo come from? it be like a Jamaican sect of dark magic users or something and completely

like gas myself up to thinking there's this whole extra level of plot that I somehow missed. And then it came right back around to Victor and I wasn't upset. I was just like, I knew that. I wasn't excited for more magic or anything. Yeah, yeah. I had a great time. There was towards the end, I was wondering if I had missed something or if it did go over my head, but I feel like it tied all together. It all together tied well in the end and.

Charlotte (12:41)
Thank

Patrick (12:58)
Victor was fun. It did leave me with some questions about the, like deeper questions about the magic system, the mystery itself. Like as it's building to this, he's alluding to like, you know, whoever did this is like on another level. And then it's like, when'd you start practicing magic, Victor? six months ago, I lost my job, you know, magic, right? it just a little bit like.

Well damn, what could a guy with 20 years of study do? Which brings up questions about the White Council and what is a wizard really capable of in a mystery story like this?

Baloreilly (13:34)
Okay, man, I am really glad to hear you say that and I'm gonna not spoil anything really deliberately, but what I can definitely tell you is that question about this is some badass doing this. Wait, it's a guy who, a sorcerer who's just been doing this for a few years. That question is something that people still debate about the book. What I will tell you is that question ties into

the background and the meta plot of the series. Okay, so let's just follow up with that. you like the pacing? Like, we've read a lot of books that are multi-climax. I think Stormfront actually is a little bit of a multi-climax book. you think that he executed that successfully? Did you feel like you had enough buildup and enough of a break between the couple big fight scenes?

Patrick (14:23)
I think the pacing actually was very good. I've read a lot of first time works of fiction or like early writers fiction and they tend to overstay their welcome and I never found that Stormfront overstayed its welcome. was almost too quick. There were times where I wish he had almost slowed down and extrapolated on like what was happening or what else was going on in the background.

You know, knowing there's more books that's part of the draw to wanting to read more is that I'm hoping some of those questions will be answered. But overall, I'd rather it be quick than it drag. And it definitely did not drag.

Baloreilly (14:59)
Yeah, well don't worry, as Jim goes on, his books definitely get longer, but I don't think you're gonna have any complaints about that. Okay, so same question to you. How'd you feel about the pacing?

Charlotte (15:10)
I thought it was really tight. It went by very quickly. They're definitely in the second half. Things keep picking up. And I think at one point he mentions that it's only or four days since he's talked to Monica. And even I was like, oh my gosh, wow, you've had a rough weekend, dude. So I didn't feel at any point like I was trying to rush through or get through pages because it was boring. At no point did I feel like.

things were boring. Patrick, there were definitely moments where I almost had to reread because things were happening so quickly that I needed to make sure that I understood, wait, hold on, so that the toad creature is back now and hold on, how many scorpions are we talking about here? So that, Turns out it's a lot of scorpions. So, but I did, I thought the pacing was good and got to the end of it and

Patrick (15:56)
Yeah, lot of scorpions.

Charlotte (16:06)
Felt like I could have kept reading.

Baloreilly (16:08)
Yeah, awesome. I do agree with you guys that I think Jim's one of his greatest gifts as a writer is his ability to pace out a book. really evident that he very quickly understood how a story arc should go, but it was something that he had to work on.

to make sure that all of his beats landed exactly the way he wanted it to. One thing that you both sort of hit on is that at certain points you were like, man, I wish there was a little bit more exposition. So one thing I think I can tell you is that the character Bob, the skull, Bob the skull, literally exists because the creative writing professor who he was talking to said,

you just got to make sure that if you're going to try to get this published, know, the pacing is good. You can't have anybody who's just there to be a talking head and just, you know, dumping exposition. So of course, what does he do? He, you know, makes a floating skull. But he still uses Bob very sparingly. doesn't drop a lot of exposition all at once. And one thing I also wanted to note about what you said, Charlotte, was actually when Adam and I started the podcast, one of the first things we did is we have to actually work

work out the timeline. You know, so we have notes. like, okay, so it starts at Thursday. Is it 10 in the morning? Is it 1 p.m.? When does the mail come to this office building? Of us actually trying to go work that out because it is so compressed. One of the things Butcher will tell you about the whole Dresden Files is every story is kind of the weekend of a given year where Harry is caught off guard by something and spends the whole story on his

Backfoot eventually we will hopefully turn you guys loose on the short stories and in those you'll get to see examples of Harry actually knowing exactly what to do in a situation because he's a freaking wizard That leads me to the last question about the overall plot We've touched on it a little bit already, but did you guys feel like the climax the ending scene with Victor was

I mean this one from a dramatic perspective. Did you feel like it was sufficient to the demands of the book? But two, from a character perspective, did you feel like for Harry and to a lesser extent for Victor, that conflict gave you a resolution on the story beats that you were looking into?

Charlotte (18:39)
say from a plot perspective, it made sense to me. enjoyed, you have to have the big confrontation with the big bad evil guy. liked that he was thrown to his own creations as a way of getting rid of him. I feel like I didn't. I know earlier on it talked about Victor's motivation and we got a lot of it from Monica, but I still felt like he was a little bit of.

almost like a cardboard character. Like there wasn't much to Victor beyond, has he been taken over by the thrall of magic? Is he this bad guy? Like we mostly hear about him from the other characters and not so much of him really explaining himself as I might have wanted. would say that I think Harry came out well in that. I liked that he cleverly used.

not magic to go after the guy. thought that him just tackling him was great that I cheered on. really enjoyed that bit of it. So narratively, it was satisfying from a character perspective. I'm not sure if really enough of who Victor was to feel satisfied with that guy being defeated in such a dramatic way.

Baloreilly (19:51)
Okay, that's awesome. Come back to me in a few books if you like the series and you keep going with this and we'll have a talk about why Victor might seem like a cardboard cutout by that point in the story. But yes, I think that is actually a very, I think that's a perfect critique of him actually. Though I do think there's a ⁓ meta-narrative reason for that. Okay, ⁓ Pat, how about you?

Was the climax satisfying dramatically? Was it satisfying from a character perspective?

Patrick (20:23)
So I'll take the question as it's given. In terms of a dramatic moment, yes, but I wanted more. I really wanted a smoke and aces style of parties at play at the lake house, spells and bullets flying everywhere. I was, you know, part of my header is like, where is, where's Bianca? Like, where's her coming back into the story? Where partner?

I think it's Murphy's partner. You know, how has he not been tracking Harry after his partner's been stung by a scorpion? Why is there not a SWAT team at this resonance? Like, where's the FBI? kind of a whole... I expected there would be almost more going on there, at least from Bianca, because she seems dead set on some kind of vengeance. And honestly, you know, house full of scorpions and fire, two birds, one stone, make it really quick and snappy. But overall, was good.

I enjoyed the application of magic. enjoyed the personal, and this is kind of bleeding into the character satisfactory, I did enjoy the limits Harry set upon himself. I am a sucker for someone sitting, acknowledging the fact of like, could just blow up the house. I could just blow up the house. I could just blow up the house. don't actually have to come to any sort of risk at all. I could just blow up the house.

Baloreilly (21:36)
Ha ha ha!

Patrick (21:45)
I understand that he essentially a sword of Damocles hanging over his head, the albatross around his neck that is the White And kind of going back to an earlier point, because that's not, it's hinted at and kind of explained of, he's killed before, so they're really on, and if he does it again, because evil wizards are really bad. But there's an evil wizard in the house. maybe, I don't know, take care of it.

You you're being tailed by all these people, there are cameras. I mean, guess his technological gremlins kinda handle that angle handily, it is something where I was satisfied on both parts. I did want a little bit more from each.

Baloreilly (22:25)
Okay, so, Patrick, just one moment before I respond to anything you said, I just have to say something to the listeners briefly. Nobody tell him! Nobody tell him! Alright, cool. So just had to get that out of the way. The FBI will be in the next book, so good job predicting that you'll see them. Anyway, so I actually really like the it's sort of a letdown from a pure fireworks perspective.

Because I remember feeling the same thing. When Harry kicks in, the door of the Varsity kicks in, blows it up with a spell, and then throws a fireball at the juke's box, I'm like, oh man, okay, now I get it. That's the first moment in me for the book where it's like, oh yeah, he's a wizard, like Dungeons and Dragons cast fireball wizard. and in the, exactly. And when we get to the,

Patrick (23:15)
has at least six level spell slots, like at least a few.

Baloreilly (23:22)
the ending scene, it's like you throw a film canister to break the circle. First of all, it's cool that you thought about why you shouldn't use a spell. And I agree that in general, the fact that Harry is genre savvy is an attractive thing about the books. But I expected there to be more, you know, lightning bolts and stuff. And I think that it's very satisfying in retrospect that Butcher gives himself.

room to grow in climaxes, but I also think it's a deliberate choice to ground a lot of the climactic moments in the books in really simple to understand dramas that you could see as a Mexican standoff at the end of just a Hollywood film. I think that is a deliberate choice. So keep track of that as you continue to read. Tell me if that's working for you or if you'd like it to devolve into a little bit more high fantasy

Patrick (24:19)
It did just strike me now that I think about it when he gets his hair taken, when he gets hit and taken's hair, he seems like he blows open the door to the But he seems ready in that moment to

have magic solve his problems at that time, right? He kicks in the door, he throws the fireball, the juice box, that's like you said, you're expecting the lightning bolt towards the guy. Because he's like, he has my hair, he can use that hair to do whatever he needs to do. This is a terrifying prospect to him, so he's willing to kind of go and do whatever he needs to do.

And then when he gets to the house, he has to have a sit down for like, you know, 30, 40 seconds being like, is it okay to kill? Should I kill him? Should I not? When before when your life was in danger, you were ready just from pull the rip cord, let's go. We'll figure it out later.

Baloreilly (25:03)
Yeah, Harry definitely, I think he feels genuine to me to a certain extent because sometimes his emotions do just override his better nature. He's not always thinking things through when he's upset or scared. jumping off of that discussion of Dresden as a character, what do you think his biggest strengths are? And you can answer that either from,

Dresden as a character, what do I think is his highest stats? Or you can answer it from a Dresden as a protagonist, what do I think Butcher has done the most right?

Patrick (25:41)
Harry's knowledge in universe is probably his biggest strength. His ability to commune with the fairy. His ability to, I'm gonna need some silver with the vampire, I'm gonna need a couple different things to handle this. It reminded me of a sense of the Witcher series of books. And also the games as well where

Every fight is a preparation. How well you know what you're going after and how well you prepare is your greatest strength, beyond the grace and speed and strength. It's the mind, it's the mental quickness, it's the alacrity to, in a situation, you have multiple options, what option will you use, what options do you want to save, because there may be a bigger threat. So I would say...

how he's written and his application and willing to use in-universe knowledge and also little bit of the genre-savvy nature of a noir novel and fantasy novel.

Baloreilly (26:39)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And Harry will actually say, either he said it in this book or he will say it in the future, that that's what a wizard is. Being a wizard is all about preparation. that's what makes them actually scary to... Okay, so Charlotte, turn it over to you. And again, as in terms of from a character or from a protagonist perspective, what are Harry's biggest strengths?

Patrick (26:54)
I think it is this book,

Charlotte (27:06)
Yeah, so I will take this. I think they're a little combined, the character versus protagonist. I think the how he thinks on his feet is my favorite thing about him. So he he's not prepared for hardly anything that happens to him, as in he doesn't there's a lot that he does not expect to happen to him in this book. And so his reactions to it, either using things that he's prepared beforehand or

improvising to get out of a situation that to me was the most exciting thing about him. I say that's kind of combined with him as a protagonist because, I mean, if you're an author, it's a little bit easier to write somebody who can think on their feet when you are writing it and actually up with things ad hoc. But I thought that that was very well done. It did seem genuine. It felt grounded the way that he was coming up with things on the fly.

well as like Pat was saying like pulling from what he knows in it didn't feel super deus ex machina that he was pulling things from wind or whatever else was going on from his background knowledge as a wizard. So I did really like that other thing I liked that and it's You can tell that it is a narrative device But it was one that I enjoyed and thought was well executed was Harry's sight. So when he can

look at characters and learn a little bit about them. I thought that was a really great way to add almost like an omniscience to the characterization to give a little bit more flavor to the characters that he's encountered without having to have you know an omniscient narrator for things. So that I thought was really a nice choice for the protagonist so that we could learn more about the people that he is encountering that

He can read them by looking at them. And so I thought that was really well used when he first meets Marconi because had no reason to know this guy. We could just be hearing background things or getting exposition from other characters, but to have Harry encounter him and to hear his perspective of, this is like a cool calculated color of money dude that I thought was well done. So to me, ⁓

Those were the biggest strengths of the character was just his improvisation and pulling things that did actually feel like not improvised, but not super hokey. And then the getting insight about the other characters.

Baloreilly (29:32)
first of all, I think the improvisation is absolutely true. It is a Dresden trademark. He is a Harrison Ford protagonist. You know, he's a scoundrel a little bit. He can think on his feet for sure. But beyond that, he is a wizard and that capability of wizards to use soul gazes or the sight and their interrelated concepts to look at either a place or a person or

somebody's interior, like exactly what you said, in a first person perspective novel, the fact that he tells you everything the site shows you is true, everything you see in a soul gaze is true, you can take this to the bank, it's so important. Because you guys will find out, Harry is not exactly an unreliable narrator in the sense that he's deliberately telling you falsehoods, but Butcher has talked about the fact that Harry has a very limited perspective.

and he can't always see everything about an event that happens to him because he doesn't know enough to see it. But whenever Dresden does a soul gaze or uses the sight, that is the author giving you in, you know, black pen, this is real and true and he's not misunderstanding anything. And you're absolutely right. It was something that really attracted me to the book that he used magic, not just as

fireballs or big location spells or making people's hearts He was turning little folklore things like the eyes or the windows to the soul into deep magical idea about truth as a metaphor for what magic really is. It's an expression of underlying truths. Okay, not to continue pontificating about the magic system, which...

God, I do enough on the regular episodes. ⁓ But ⁓ I just want to follow this up by, ⁓ so Dresden's a D &D character. What's his best stat? What's his worst stat? Charlotte, you go first.

Charlotte (31:36)
Yeah,

OK, I feel like his wisdom is really low. ⁓ Maybe that's unfair, but that's where I came from at the beginning. some of his instincts are not great.

Baloreilly (31:40)
fair.

Fair.

Charlotte (31:48)
And then high strength, I mean, classic wizard, like high intelligence, right? That he does have the ability to pull from all of these different areas, bring his knowledge in, even if it means cheating, like he does have Bob, he has the literal talking head that is telling him spells or, know, potions and things like that. I don't know, he's

the really bad student that just managed to be a really good test taker or really good at studying and uses that to get along like myself, honestly, that was not pointed, Brian, I promise you. ⁓ So that's kind of where... Forgot who I was talking to for a second. ⁓

Baloreilly (32:23)
Hahaha!

Patrick (32:24)
you

Just a little bit, just a little bit on the nose.

I can vouch for that, Charlotte. Here, is fine. It is fine. Go on. Pop off, queen.

Charlotte (32:37)
So that to me was, but yes, but low wisdom in a lot of those senses. Like he is very driven by his emotions in some of those scenes also in his improvisation of his, the scale of his response often seems puzzling to say the least.

Baloreilly (32:55)
Yeah, I think that's interesting because in D &D, of course, what makes you a good ⁓ investigator being perceptive, and that's what wisdom governs, I think you're correct because I think a lot of fans would say that Harry, despite being a good investigator who perception is governed by the wisdom stat, he is not wise in the sense of...

his ability to weigh his actions and plan in advance the dilemmas he's going to face. But he is smart in terms of how he reacts to them and his ability to actually seek things out. that's interesting.

Charlotte, one thing that I wanted to ask you about specifically, because I know you've read Stephen King, you got through that scene in It that we're not going to mention, you know, but in the book, Murphy literally calls Dresden a chauvinist. So do you think that that is warranted as a character flaw? And I want to point out that that criticism that

Dresden is a chauvinist is one that readers will make about this series. It's not one that people levy at Butcher's other work. So with that in mind, do you think that that is a flaw of Dresden?

Charlotte (34:19)
So it's interesting because It almost feels like a cop out for someone in the novel to call him a chauvinist because just because you're pointing out the behavior doesn't mean that it's acceptable to then have it continue throughout. And I was not super thrilled with the way that he was treating women in that book or frankly, the way that women were treating him, like his characterization of.

those female characters, that's not Dresden's reaction to them. That is every single woman that he encounters wants to have a sexual relationship with him besides the grieving soon to be widow. So to me, that feels like cheating to say, well, it's because I've written this character to be chauvinistic. ⁓ But you, I think also have some problematic, I don't.

typically like using that word. I think you've got some stuff going on with how you write women.

Baloreilly (35:09)
Yeah, I think that's definitely fair. I think it shows in this book that Butcher is a 25 year old at the University of Oklahoma who grew up in a family that, you know, put the fun in fundamentalist and is breaking away from that at this point in his life. So.

Charlotte (35:25)
See,

now that's helpful context because, Brian, I did absolutely no background research on this. I did not Google. I did not read any Wikipedia. But definitely knowing that this is written by a 25-year-old. I did look up when it was written in 2000. So I am willing to give a little bit of slack for that type of stuff because it doesn't really detract from the story all that much. It doesn't detract from those characters being still interesting in his.

conversations with them being interesting and fun to read. ⁓ But part where Murphy does just flat out call him a chauvinist, that was the part where I was like, okay, but hang on. That's not how you can just get out of the way that you're kind of writing off women in this story.

Baloreilly (36:12)
Yeah, just because a character is going to call you out on it doesn't mean that you, the author, can then carte blanche, you know, have him do whatever you want him to do as a narrative advice, right?

So Pat, same question to you. ⁓ What do you think Dresden's biggest weaknesses or flaws are?

Patrick (36:28)
I would say Harry's flaw, which is weird because before I talked about how he's so prepared, but he's also remarkably like, not willing to grapple with the practical danger.

He's so focused on the magic of it all that a dude with a bat completely just knocks him. And that's like, as a person, was like, guy literally pulled you into his car and said, you're gonna have a bad day. And you continue on this path, you're going to random airports to meet with random strangers, not thinking of anyone tracking your movements, you're not trying to hide your route, you're taking the same way home.

Baloreilly (36:46)
Hahaha!

Patrick (37:08)
just like practical skills of like evasion Like as an investigator, you should be able to tail someone beyond magical means. And I feel like he as a character has no concept counter surveillance.

Baloreilly (37:22)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And one thing that I will say is that Dresden grows as a character in a lot of different ways throughout the series. And you start the series meeting him when he's 25 and pretty much fresh off a farm in the Ozarks. He actually has worked as an apprentice private investigator for at least a couple of years before the events of Stormfront. he's out on his own fairly recently. So I think it is his trade craft.

valid critique. It's not as good in Stormfront as it should be from your hard-boiled novel protagonist. And that's definitely a weakness of his. I think Harry would frankly agree with that at this point. I also think that I had the same reaction to you when I read Stormfront for the first time.

where I thought, not having seen anybody else's reactions, oh, this guy's overdoing the whole, you know, a drop dead gorgeous dame walked in you know, kind of like thing. thought that it was reasonable, like it was very sort of genre savvy from the author's perspective to say,

Well, if I actually made that character, like if I made a person who had a day-to-day like that in a book in the modern day, people would think he was completely absurd as an individual. People would just think that he's ridiculous. And that's how a lot of people do react to him. So I thought that was a good choice, or not a good choice, but I thought that was a reasonable way to write noir fiction in a modern setting.

But I also think that if I had felt like nothing changed ever in the series, I don't think I would have stuck with it.

Patrick (39:10)
The thought occurred to me, the books written in the early 2000s and having gone through the pop culture phase, there is a very fine line between Dresden, like private investigator and Dresden, I studied the blade. it is a little like, it did strike me when I was reading where I was like, huh, you know magic and you're wearing your duster you feel good about this.

Baloreilly (39:23)
Mm-hmm.

It's

definitely obvious that Dresden is a character from before all that was meme-ified. For sure.

Patrick (39:37)
Yes, yeah, or like

right on the cusp where like this is very much like perhaps written of like in the echo chamber of like an online board that no longer exists and like was like, yeah, like an investigator would have this and he would have this and they would have this and they would be so cool and no one would understand it. it's like, again, I don't know if that was the intent or where his head was at, but it did strike me that there was a little like.

Baloreilly (39:48)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick (40:04)
There's a line there and I don't know how many times we go over it and it may be more like a script.

Charlotte (40:08)
think Pat is really picking up on something where it's really hard to put myself in a mindset of what the world was like before the pickup artist. that really is what strikes of the things that was bumping up to me narratively that I think made it a weak choice is this is a dude that's walking around hair and sweatpants and like you said, like a black duster.

And yet all of these women are super attracted to him that I don't buy. That did not make sense to me. And so there is very much a, well, but he's like, you know, from the matrix. And so, of course, like women are good. It does very much speak to ⁓ an immaturity about how men and women interact with each other. And I will also say narratively for a guy who says several times that, well, I have a lot of trouble getting dates. Like he's got all these attractive women that are trying to.

So that to me also I think was a weakness in the writing of this character that makes him being a chauvinist kind of feel like a cop out to me that it's more a weakness of the authors.

Baloreilly (41:13)
just want to ask you a question, Charlotte, because you said this a couple times, not saying you're incorrect, want to just know, you say all of these women who are interested in him. Let's put Susan aside. Who else are you saying is interested in Harry?

Charlotte (41:29)
Who was I, or maybe I was not reading that correctly. Now I'm second guessing he appears to be having a flirtatious thing with Murphy in at least one time, right? Am I making that up? Maybe it's all just in Harry's mind and I'm reading it.

Baloreilly (41:40)
just cut out there, but I think the answer

to

Charlotte (41:43)
you bringing that question to me does make me think that perhaps I am taking Harry's perspective literally that these women are interested in him rather than seeing through that they're just being there. Cause I thought that he had had a flirtatious thing with Murphy and

think there was one, think it was Linda too, but again, maybe that was.

Maybe I misinterpreted that, I don't know.

Baloreilly (42:08)
I'm not saying that you misinterpreted anything. I was just curious because the story is written, I think, leaves that open to interpretation. And I don't think necessarily every reader would say that or wouldn't. And I think it's interesting to track how you perceive Harry's relating to the characters around him in general.

Patrick (42:34)
Yeah, I mean, I think Linda is definitely presenting as someone, apparently lives as someone who, you know, uses sex as a means of connection and sex as a means of communication. that doesn't mean like there's not a flirtatious attitude at play between her and Dresden, you know, during the phone calls when he's concussed and Murphy's over and she's like, I'll come to your place. Like, you know, it's, I don't want to,

It's not that they're throwing themselves at him. It's just, it's more written as like, Murphy's over, like taking care of him after he's concussed. And he also has a date with, you know, Susan and then Linda wants to come over and the prom's tomorrow. And it's like, all of these women and so many choices and what if they meet? It's like, you could just have a conversation. You could just explain like, hey, I'm concussed or, you know, I'm clearly in bad shape. This person is like,

I'm a consultant for them and I collapsed in their office. I did have a date and this is part of my job. he's hyping it up to be this like, what if they meet it'll be terrible. It's really not that big a deal.

Baloreilly (43:35)
You're...

You are quoting me from our review of that chapter. Adam as well. Anyway, Pat.

Patrick (43:44)
I have never watched

Baloreilly (43:48)
Did you overall though like him as a protagonist? Did you want to see him succeed?

Patrick (43:52)
Yeah, yeah, and that's the thing is, in spite of that or despite that, I did enjoy him as a person. I never got the feeling that Harry's a bad guy, right? I never got the feeling that he's, does he have some blind spots? Maybe, I don't know if that's how he's written or if it's like a facet of the author from first book and background experiences, overall the character was fun and I enjoyed.

seeing them struggle and I enjoyed seeing them succeed.

Baloreilly (44:23)
Charlotte, how about you? Did you like him as a protagonist and did you want to see him succeed?

Charlotte (44:29)
Despite the negativity I just expressed, I really did like Harry. I think he is a fun character. I think he is compelling in way that he approaches problems. He seems to have a moral sense of how magic should be used and right and wrong and.

soft spot for these characters that he gets to know. I enjoyed the relationships that he had with Mac the bartender and with Bob and the repartee that he had. So yeah, I wanted I want to see him succeed and I enjoyed spending time with him and want to see where he goes next.

Baloreilly (45:06)
yeah, I think that one of the really great things about Butcher's writing. Harry is a complicated character. He's not all good. And I don't just mean, you know, maybe he's evil in certain respects. I mean, in some ways, he's not my ideal protagonist, but Butcher...

does make him likable beside that he feels, to a certain extent to me, very real because he is somebody who I can see existing in the year 2000 as an imperfect 25 year old man.

Charlotte (45:41)
Yes, it just occurred to me, ⁓ another piece of media that I meant to compare this to at the beginning in contrast to Harry. Jessica Jones, very clearly also an homage to the noir genre. She is cool. She can pull off the leather jacket and she also, Pat, to your point, has very good investigative skills, not just her super strength. So I would say that she is, if you're thinking of the cool version of this character,

Patrick (45:49)
Boom!

Charlotte (46:09)
Jessica Jones as a wizard, that is not what Harry Dresden is ⁓ capturing.

Baloreilly (46:15)
Yeah, I agree with you, honestly, and hold that thought because think that you will meet characters who give off that vibe more strongly in the future. And I think it's one of the reasons why Harry manages to be a likable protagonist, if you feel that he is, is because if he were cool, if he was doing all of this and it was part of the plan, then dude, you're kind of an asshole.

And we forgive him for kind of being a dick sometimes because he doesn't know what he's doing. You're kind of, you know, you're bumbling around.

that intake of breath?

Charlotte (46:52)
was just gonna say he doesn't

mean it. That's really, it goes back, that's the sexism thing too. You do forgive him for it, because, well, I don't think it's intentionally malice. He's just kind of silly.

Patrick (47:05)
Sorry, and this might offend two to three guests on here. He reminds me of someone who didn't go to a co-ed high school.

Charlotte (47:15)
Ouch. Thanks a lot. But also yes.

Baloreilly (47:16)
Wow. Burn.

Patrick (47:18)
⁓ no, but like, you know, he's kind of like, he doesn't fully, he doesn't fully have

like, you know, coming into the game a little bit late and like, doesn't fully have a grasp on like, you know, not, not social norms, but like, you know, the best way to approach someone or like, you know, what is considered too much, too little, like it kind of like a how to avoid being an asshole, like crash course. and I don't know.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:32)
you

Patrick (47:43)
⁓ Maybe that's less true and I just wanted to get a dig at two people that I've known for a while.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:48)
I'm gonna break in because one of on any picture of Jim Butcher that I've ever seen is, Jim Butcher looks like someone who reads Jim Butcher books. And I think that does apply to Harry. Harry looks like someone who reads the Dresden Files

Patrick (47:58)
Yeah.

Baloreilly (47:59)
Yeah.

Patrick (48:03)
Yeah,

a lot of, I got the sense of a lot of enforced, like grew up with, or maybe not grew up, but grew up around people who enforced like, no, this is completely normal. Like obviously this is cool. And it's oh, you could have done with more of an upbringing.

Charlotte (48:20)
you

Baloreilly (48:20)
Hold that

so let's talk about some other characters in the book. you're starting this one. So were there other characters who really stood out to you, where you were like, wow, this one's really well done, or really poorly?

Patrick (48:35)
I don't know if I have an answer of well done or poorly done. I have two answers for who I wanted to see more of, and that is Marcon and I feel like Bianca got an incredible setup and a decent interaction and then silence and nothing, and I really wanted more. it seems like there was a mutual trepidation between wizards and vampires. ⁓

like they are capable, I don't wanna say creatures, facets of this magical world. And you get a little bit of that in their confrontation, which kind of goes back to an earlier point of as soon as the glamour drops, she's evil, and then she's wounded when it's back on, and whole thing, another time.

And Marcon was interesting because of the soul right? The idea that like, he sets up this power as ultimately the is, you can take this as empirical, what you see. I am a sucker for characters that are, I don't wanna say one note.

but are masks of anger or pain. And I would have loved to see not only what happened either to make you this way or how do you get to a point in your life where you've dealt with enough wizards that that is your default.

Baloreilly (49:54)
All of these are great questions and points. Charlotte, what characters stood out to you?

Charlotte (49:58)
not fair that Pat got to go first on that one, because those were the exact characters I was going to

But I did also think of ⁓ I really liked Murphy and Carmichael and I want to see want to see more of Carmichael actually somebody who is very skeptical of Harry, even though he's had interactions with him in the past. I really I enjoy that dynamic in ⁓ these types of I want to see hear more from the nonbeliever and see how

he reacts and see also if Harry can win him over because if he continues to actually be effective, can he actually get the skeptic to be on his side? I liked their Mulder and Scully dynamic. like ⁓ even though Murphy was also trepidatious at times with dealing with Harry, but those two characters I think fun and I wanna see more of.

Baloreilly (50:48)
I'm really glad to hear you say that because actually what our last episode was partially about was exactly what you discussed. Can Harry went over someone who is somewhat skeptical like Carmichael. I think you also partially answered this question in that discussion, Charlotte, but turning this over to you, because Patrick jumped

Are there any other characters that you hope to see return or do you want to expand on why you want to see any of the characters you mentioned?

Charlotte (51:18)
some of the other supernatural characters I hope become part of the broader world. Bob the Skull. That was great. I really enjoy Bob. I can only imagine that he is going to be part of the future of the Morgan as well, because I

I thought in this book it was definitely a facade with a lot going on behind the scenes, especially with the White Council that we haven't heard of. And it seems like he and Harry have a lot of history, and I want to learn about that history.

Baloreilly (51:47)
OK, so let's talk about some specific characters. Somebody who haven't mentioned at Susan.

How did you guys feel about Susan as a character, her role in the story? What did you think about

Charlotte (52:01)
So Susan also reminded me of a journalist in another piece of media, is Freddie Lowndes in Hannibal,

Baloreilly (52:09)
and Freddy Lownes you mean in the Mads Mikkelsen TV series Hannibal. Yeah, yep.

Charlotte (52:12)
Yes, in the series Hannibal, not yes.

So I found her to be very Freddy Louns-esque in that she's hardscrabble using her feminine wiles, whatever she can to get a story, but then also, your of her actions don't really make sense and don't seem like it would really get to the outcome that you need. also, she actually going on it? The ambiguity of whether or not she's actually interested in Harry, I

I think makes sense and is kind of interesting to me. But thought that she was a little bit weak as a character.

just thought she was a little bit too tropey. I know that of this whole is an homage to the noir, but she very much felt like the hardscrabble journalist much else going on behind sort of being a device more than anything.

Patrick (53:01)
I liked Susan. do kind of, hitting on what Charlotte said, I do have the issue where she was kind of tropey, but I went in a different direction with it where I kind of saw, you know, the adventures of Superman, animated series like DCAU, like late 90s, early 2000s, Lois Lane, where like this is someone who's given is like competent and capable and like driven towards their story, but also is like despite all their competence or maybe

Baloreilly (53:21)
Sure.

Patrick (53:30)
you know, because of it, they're generally used as a plot device. You know, I would like to see more of her. I do believe that she is a true believer, like the scene in the bar when she's talking to him, it doesn't seem like she's belittling him, it doesn't seem like she's like, you know, needling him just to like, you know, I gotta make rent, let's go pick on Dresden and like, you know, get a story. It does seem like she's a true believer, but it also seems like, you know, this is a reporter

who then who believes in demons, who then when facing the demon pulls a And it's like, well, if you believe this, why are you trying to shoot it? Like maybe fight, flight or freeze. I don't know, like people do crazy things when they're confronted with stress and the threat, but it was a little bit like tough as nails reporter, know, falls victim to, which potion is it kind of blunt? Like, yeah.

I like her, I want her to do more beyond being kind of a plot device.

Baloreilly (54:26)
So at the end of every episode of Recorded Neutral Territory, Adam and I ask a question of the listeners that is about something we just discussed or something that we're about to discuss on the program to get their takes on it. And one of the first ones we asked was if Monica Sells is at all morally culpable for the people who die or are hurt as a result of

the actions that Victor takes. So actually gonna give you, I think, is a fair reflection of Adam and my answer at the end of this.

So Pat, do you think Monica is at all morally cultured?

Patrick (55:07)
Yes, in terms of like putting Harry into it, but I also think on the interaction at the end and the interaction with her daughter when Harry's leaving that she was kind of hoping that this would come about. I think she's a woman looking for someone to help her and has no hope that anyone will. I think she's morally culpable for what happens before? No, because your husband's now an evil wizard who can like...

Baloreilly (55:21)
Peace.

Patrick (55:33)
set you on fire with his mind or like summon a hundred scorpions like duress like we don't typically charge people who are like you know forced to drive a getaway car the same as the people holding the gun to their head but morally culpable for getting harry involved yes but i i do wonder if that was like her hail man

Baloreilly (55:55)
Charlotte, how about you?

Charlotte (55:57)
Yeah, I can sympathize with Monica and why she doesn't more directly confront Victor. That is definitely one scary dude. Again, I can't stress enough how many scorpions there were. then, and also, you know, the fact that he's too many scorpions and that he's threatened their children, that they're involved. So I think that she's...

Patrick (56:11)
Too many.

Charlotte (56:19)
She is culpable for getting Harry in, but like Pat said, it's a Hail Mary. I think that that's actually the best thing that she did, right? Is that she tried to reach out to somebody who might be able to do things in whatever way she was able to. Again, she was not honest with him. And I think that she probably could have given him a little bit more of a heads up as to what was going on without directly putting herself in danger. But I could see her being so wary of doing that, not necessarily knowing the limits of Victor's power. Like, what if he...

had told her that he was like spying on her or could see her every move. You could totally see that. I mean, the third eye allows you to see so much I think that she, the fact that she reached out at all to me

gives her a little bit more of, me more sympathy for her. It gives me more sympathy for her that she did come forward to do something, even if that thing was not and a little bit of time to figure out how to stop that guy.

Baloreilly (57:13)
Yeah, I think that you guys generally agree with our take on it. We, I think, stuck out the position that Monica is culpable in the sense that she's literally a member of a criminal conspiracy doesn't go to the police. Obviously for understandable reasons, but like literally she is. And two, if you're going to take the risk to go to Harry in the first place and you know magic is real,

then level with him. And if you do that, then there's a much better chance that your husband is not going to kill your children.

we ultimately thought that she redeems herself of any culpability she has because one, she is trying to solve the situation and two, what do we find out about her at the end of the book? She's in witness protection.

Presumably she's working to dismantle whatever might be left of the 3i drug ring and she's actively attempting to, you know, help fix the situation. So like literally from a legal perspective, she would be culpable in the sense that you could charge her with a criminal act, duress would be a defense to that. she wouldn't ultimately go to prison for it given the redemptive actions that she took from a legal perspective.

Okay, so I just really wanna quickly talk about, there any characters who you wanted to put a bet down on what their future would be like with Harry? Arch enemies, frenemies, allies, romantic interests, is there anybody you met who you're like, I wanna make a guess that this is what's gonna happen with these characters moving forward.

Patrick (58:47)
like Carmichael's gonna have the skeptics fall, their skeptic no longer trope happen at some point, right? Eventually he's obviously, I don't think he's going to like Harry, but I think he's going to come to a point where this denying this is now right? I think that'll do the frenemies kind of thing with him.

I hope he doesn't have a romantic interest with Murphy. I feel like it's already there, but I really hope it doesn't go any further because I like more of a strictly business thing going forward. Or at least like friendly, but like very clearly live in two different worlds or our priorities are very different Archenemies Bianca? God, I hope

And I feel like we already kind of got the frenemies of Marconi, so maybe that.

Baloreilly (59:35)
Charlotte, how about you?

Charlotte (59:36)
Yeah, think frenemies with Marconi, I just can't see Marconi letting go of the fact that he has a real life wizard now that he knows and can call upon to be on his side potentially. That's kind of, I could totally see that as being the next thing of, well, now my next client is Marconi, ⁓ but we'll see if that prediction comes true or not. I wanna see more Toot Toot. I wanna see that Pixie again. That guy, I want that pizza eating Pixie. I know that was.

Patrick (1:00:01)
Mmm.

Charlotte (1:00:05)
We haven't really talked about that yet. And perhaps his arc has been closed up because now he has his pizza. But I want to see Harry call upon the pixies more.

Baloreilly (1:00:15)
And just for the Pixies, what did you think about that? Did you find it funny? Was it purely charming? Did you think Toot Toot was a total idiot? Or where were you?

Charlotte (1:00:26)
So the magic system is so grounded that I did like nods to the more supernatural and the little bit hiding behind the surface, like all of the insanity that can come along with magic. So the demon, the vampires, I, and so just the idea that there are fairies in the world. think at one point Harry mentions, I tried to highlight the...

times that Harry mentioned something that I could see as being like a future backstory, I think he mentions he has a fairy godmother. So I think that building out that part of the lore would be very fun because I just thought that it was a fun series of rules written about how you have to summon the fairies and what they're able to do, like that ⁓ scaffolding for that

Baloreilly (1:00:56)
He certainly does, yes.

Charlotte (1:01:17)
character was very fun for me.

Patrick (1:01:19)
pixies, obviously the vampires are coming back. That is going to happen. You put that Chekov's gun on the mantle and be like, ah, vampires. Anyway, and then move on. I assume we're going to get more magic. I assume if there's vampires following the underworld principle, they're werewolves.

They're likely at war. there's, you know, there are fairies, that means there's fey. Are we gonna get seely and unseely? We already have a pretty big Irish kind of like influence in Chicago.

Charlotte (1:01:51)
Yeah, so I just want to take huge swings so that you can put them in the podcast and have it be completely wrong. So all of your listeners can feel super smart that they've read these books and I haven't yet. I don't think so. I think that Victor sells actually had power behind him and was being put forward because we wanted third eye on the streets of Chicago and that there's something going on with that. I definitely don't think this is the last we're going to see if that drug.

Baloreilly (1:01:57)
Love it.

That's cool too.

Charlotte (1:02:20)
I think that Victor was a Patsy and there's a whole other layer of this that we didn't get in this book. So that's my one wild prediction. And then the other thing is I just, I do wanna hear more about upbringing and there's, I'm looking now back at my highlights of like, ooh, that could be a future story. And what happened with his master?

that I feel like is going to play in somehow in the future of who that guy was. Because he mentions it several times, and also like him being marked, all of that stuff I definitely want to hear a lot more about.

Baloreilly (1:02:55)
Pat, what next?

Patrick (1:02:57)
My big Victor's coming back, necromancy is gonna be a thing, and Monica's gonna die. She's gonna come back and she's gonna die, and I think Victor is coming back as well. think, I don't, I feel like either, like Charlotte mentioned, that he's a patsy for power, and that maybe in a sense, like his power and like ability to grasp magic is useful, and he's an investment. I think he's coming back through some form of necromancy, and I think that

Monica will be back as well.

Baloreilly (1:03:26)
Do you hear this guy thinking that there's gonna be future books that involve necromancy? Crazy, right? Okay. So let's talk about magic and the supernatural a little bit more. Charlotte, I wanna throw this to you first. What'd you think about the magic system the lens of Stormfront?

Charlotte (1:03:43)
⁓ I liked it. a crunchy magic system as in like homegrown sort of. I liked that it feels a little bit driven almost like emotionally. mean, it is driven emotionally. I like that it's driven by what's going on with you. I like the of spells that able to be done on the fly versus the things that take a lot of preparation.

always interested in a story like this of the scalability of the magic or the scalability of a system. so Harry very clearly for us sets the ceiling of you can't kill another person with magic like that, legally with the white council, quote unquote. then he also kind of sets it as like this takes incredibly powerful magic. You have to harness the power

of the storms itself to be able to do something like this to kill two people ripping out their hearts that way. So he's really set a ceiling for capability of this magic system or at least has appeared to. So I'm curious if we're getting a lot more books, how you can up the stakes when you've already done that, what other sorts of or

sources of power you can tap into to do bigger and better things because book series always has to try and up the ante and it does strike me as a narrative challenge when in your very first book you said this is incredibly powerful magic to kill these two people something that I am probably not capable of without killing myself like that's the way the energy of this system works to set that in stone at the beginning

I could see that being challenging to work around or to overcome in an interesting way. It could be, I'm curious to see how you get around that and still have interesting stakes.

Baloreilly (1:05:27)
Pat, how about you? How'd you think about the magic system?

Patrick (1:05:30)
So, Brian, you and I have had long conversations about magic systems in different forms of media, that is... I liked it. I want more, right? That's really my big takeaway of this because, like Charlotte said, it seemed like there are so... are a lot of limits, but there's also a lot of potential, like interior, like, magic that you cast from, like, your own, know, is it a reserve? Is it emotion? Like...

Baloreilly (1:05:36)
God have we. Yeah.

Patrick (1:05:57)
you know, what do you pull from? Like, is it ritual? know, but then you can also draw from like the natural order. draw from others. There's blood magic, which is always a classic. We love blood magic. What it really left me with is I don't, I, at the end of the book, I was kind of left feeling that I don't really know the rules. I don't think they give the rules fully in the system. It kind of seems like you can get away with it.

so long as you have the energy to power it and the energy being like you need to draw from something primordial. Which is great and I want to see more of it but like where's the clairvoyance right like how is there no scrying spell in any of this you know coming where's where's the chronomancy the most powerful form of magic it's of course know it seems like

If you can send a demon to a location, astrally project, is there an astral dimension that you can hunt someone through or go through? Is there a tele... I wanna see more. We got a lot of evocation, we got a little bit of blood magic, we got some summoning. I want more schools of magic and want more rules and I want someone to break them in half.

Baloreilly (1:07:08)
So one thing I want to differentiate here, because you don't know either of them at this point, but there are both laws of magic and rules of There's like the, the, the, no, the rules are like thermodynamics. Like it is not possible to do this as a rule, magic can't do this. The laws are, you will be prosecuted.

Patrick (1:07:19)
Sure. Rules are constrict, laws are set and stuff.

Baloreilly (1:07:34)
things that are against the law are possible. Things that are against the rules are, as far as we know, not possible. You haven't gotten a good picture of either of them yet. other point I want to make about what you're hitting on in terms of the system is twofold. One, promise you, has read lot.

of books and works that have magic systems in and his take is really nuanced. You will see a lot of stuff. There's nothing that is in the popular conception of what magic can do that he hasn't had a passing thought about whether it's possible in his series.

Another thing I want to mention is that I think the Dresden Files magic system has something in common with, and you might find this odd, Pat, it has something in common with both Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones. Because the magic is never systematized in the sense that the absolutely crunchiest, not the homegrown way, but the numbers way, crunchiest authors on the planet will do in their books, but it's also not

you know, Harry Potter, whatever the plot demands, ad hoc, there's no consistency. It is intuitive. Like when, depending whether you're watching the movie or reading the book, Arwen or Elrond drops the water hammer on the Nazgul, you're like, hell yeah, that's exactly what I expect rad elves to be able to do. I get it.

it's not like somebody sits down and says, so this is how you cast a spell, but you're like, yeah, man, in this universe with these stakes, this character feels like he should be able to do something like this, and the way this character continues to operate seems consistent to me. If you told me what he did last book, what he does this book,

Makes sense. I think that's the best thing I can say about the magic system.

And I just want to say that because want you to think about whether you agree with that as you read it. Because not everybody agrees with my take on the magic system being that intuitive. Some people actually think it's quite crunchy.

we covered a little bit of this already, but are there any supernatural or magical tropes that you haven't mentioned that you do hope to see Dresden encounter in the future?

Patrick (1:09:50)
I assume there'll be a dragon because there's always a dragon there's going to be a dragon in Chicago. I I know there's a dragon in Chicago. There's gonna be

Baloreilly (1:10:00)
Who says there'll only be one?

Patrick (1:10:02)
Right. Well, I age I know I will see at least a drag, right? I'm not saying there will be more I'm not saying I'm just saying there will be will definitely not be zero dragons I feel like we're going to see More magic systems or I hope we're going to see more magic systems. Maybe not even systems or different schools of magic know, I want to see We got a good taste of Victor of someone who is you know, not

following the laws and the rules. I want to see someone who is good at I want to see your fully-fledged dark wizard. I want to see a crimson king. I want to see someone who is have understood the truths of the world, and in doing so, they feel that the world is not worth saving. I want to see that level of like, burn it down or impose order upon something that is

ultimately chaos.

Baloreilly (1:10:56)
Adam's shaking his head because he can't think of any characters like that in the series. So sorry, Pat. about you?

Patrick (1:11:00)
No, listen.

Charlotte (1:11:04)
trope that we did see that I thought was delightful, the flying broom, I thought that was fun that that got incorporated in there. We hadn't mentioned it yet, but yeah, exactly. That actually was the first thing to come to mind of like, what is there in Fantasia that we haven't seen yet? mean, so the duster is basically the magic robe. So I guess we've got that. We've got a skull in his lair. So we've got skeletons. do think...

Baloreilly (1:11:11)
Little Fantasia, yeah, yeah.

Charlotte (1:11:30)
I liked the potions, I wanna see more cauldrons. I wanna see a dungeon. I think that's what we're missing. wanna see a dungeon and I want to see Victor's little thing kind of got to it, but I wanna see cultists, like an actual cult underground in Chicago that is simmering beneath the surface. always love a good conspiracy.

Baloreilly (1:11:52)
So when you say dungeon, do you mean you want to see a perilous position that people are locked into with little hope of escape? Or are you saying you want to see like some kind of like unknown underground lair filled with all kinds of supernatural creatures in different little corridors that you could walk into unsuspectingly?

Charlotte (1:12:17)
I

want the second one. want the, you you're going through the stone corridors underground trying to get to the MacGuffin at the end. That type of, you know, a little bit of Indiana Jones style in there. would be satisfying.

Baloreilly (1:12:29)
Yeah,

definitely nothing like that. So sorry, you can be very disappointed, but you what can we say? I just can't have everything. All So are there any specific spells that you hope to see or spells that you saw that you hope to see used differently or on a different scale?

Patrick (1:12:45)
Time

stop I want to see time stop. I love chronomancy. I want to see someone do a time stop I want to see a crime scene happening on a speeding truck that he has to time stop to get some evidence what give me the plot of speed and Then it's only the first No, I I do want to see like chronomancy. I do

wanna see some really strong, we already got a lot of good evocation, I'd like to see a magic There's something that I really like in Warhammer Fantasy, they have a College of Magic there, and they have a dueling chamber set up that's completely made out of obsidian, so it dampens the magic of really strong magic users, so they don't kill each

And I would love to see something like that. I would love to see like, what is wizard combat look like when you're not trying to kill the person in this it's, can't use magic to kill. It's one of the few things that we are told that is, you can't do it. So what does that look like when, know, what is their, hate to use a Harry Potter reference, but what is their defense against the Dark Arts class? Like what does that look like?

Baloreilly (1:13:54)
on the magic side that you saw, want to see differently, or just hope to see?

Charlotte (1:13:58)
Yeah, so not a specific spell, but I would like to learn a little bit more about how one becomes a wizard. was talking a little bit. I keep going back to Harry's backstory, but I love a good backstory. I'm not saying, listen, I don't want midichlorians. I don't need to know the science of how any of this is happening, but we saw how Victor was learning magic a little bit. I want to know how did Harry come to get his magic powers? Like what type of...

studying do you do that type of thing. I enjoy that as lore of, like grounded systems. I wanna know that least some logic behind what are able to do within a system.

Baloreilly (1:14:40)
I'll say that one thing I really do like about the series in general is that the author, think, has put a lot of thought into how things would work systematically in his world. And sometimes the answer is just like in our world, not necessarily the way you design it in an ideal white room. So I'll just say that in ⁓ answer to that ⁓ hope. Okay.

also about supernatural creatures, talked about this a little bit, but as a vampire, did you enjoy the take on vampires that you saw on this?

Charlotte (1:15:16)
Yes, I like a scary vampire. I like a vampire that actually ⁓ will kill you and suck your blood. I think that that is little bit more true to the type of thing than sexy vampire. I liked that as soon as we saw Bianca's true form that she was frankly terrifying. was, I liked that choice.

Baloreilly (1:15:39)
how about you? How'd you think he did with the vampires?

Patrick (1:15:41)
So the vampires

in this, honestly, I'm gonna talk about Warhammer Fantasy again, reminded me of that because the vampires in Warhammer Fantasy, they're undead and they devote a portion of their magic because pretty much all vampires are baseline magical beings. devote a portion of their magic to maintaining a glamour that makes them look human and seductive. But when they fight, that's the first thing to drop.

because you need all the magical power you can get. So I love that depiction. I do liken this that it was less undead and more bat. kind of reminded me of the incredible Van Helsing film with Hugh Jackman. I forget who plays Dracula in that, that transport, or even like the Skyrim transformation, what, Dawnguard? I think it's Dawnguard when you like.

Baloreilly (1:16:16)
Mmm.

Patrick (1:16:31)
can transform into a vampire and it's like terrifying, not undead, but like creature. Like, this is the creature feature starring the creature. And yeah, I really enjoy that. I enjoy that depiction. I like Charlotte. I like scary vampires. I like when scary doesn't mean dead thing walking. I like when scary means like, no, this is something that should be in a cave.

Baloreilly (1:16:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and one thing I want you to track is you mentioned that you liked the glamour of attractiveness which drops when it's time to throw down. Let me know if you like how that's executed as we get further into the series. Again, not necessarily gonna pay off next book, but if we keep going with it, just think about it. Okay.

talked a little bit before, so we're gonna skip the question about whether you like the pixies here. But how about the Toad Demon? I'm gonna preface this by saying, when I think demon, I think either Frankenstein, Mary Shelley, it's a daemon, or demon like the exorcist.

Did you guys like the Toad Demon as a demon? Pat, starting with you.

Patrick (1:17:45)
Loved it. Loved demons being depicted as things that are The aura is the thing that's threatening, not necessarily the appearance. And like with this, it kind of like... I got the picture of like, maybe this is showing where my head's at, but almost Japanese toad, like wood print depiction. You know, like something that's like colorful and maybe a bit oddly proportioned, you

Or even like, this may resonate with some of the audience, like Naruto frog sage toad, like, not really overtly scary, but like, scary, because of like, this is clearly not normal.

Baloreilly (1:18:25)
Yeah, fucking weird, got it, Charlotte, how about you?

Patrick (1:18:26)
Yeah.

Charlotte (1:18:28)
Yeah, I don't know if Demon... I'm with you. I hear Demon and I think that first of all, an intelligence, right? And this was more... almost struck me like how I think of trolls in fantasy, really. the rules around it really felt, you know, like you're summoning a djinn, you know its name. That aspect of it I thought was...

was really neat. So I did enjoy the demon as that villain. I like that it also, narratively, it was satisfying that it came back again at the end. I thought that ⁓ that was well done.

Patrick (1:19:02)
It reminded me a little bit of, Brian will know this, I don't know if anybody else will, in a series we read growing up, the Mallory and the Gleabred, summoning is literally you're pulling this otherworldly consciousness and forcing it into something that you find scary. You're crafting the form. it kind of reminded me of that, not necessarily because of that system, but because the thing inside what you put it in,

hates you as the summoner. it does not like that it was I think you kind of see that at the end where as soon as the control, Victor's control over it is broken in immediately is like turns and stares at Victor because you put me in the body of a toad thing and I am not.

Baloreilly (1:19:44)
Yeah, Pat, I will say it's not exactly the same as the Bulgarian. He's not like ripping it off or anything, but hold that thought. is an interesting

moving on to the supernatural more broadly, mentions the Never Never a couple times at least. Do you guys get a sense of what you felt like that was?

Charlotte (1:20:05)
think it might be like an astral plane potentially or what actually was coming to mind is like the Feywild perhaps like a magic world inhabited by magic beings. I could see that that's where the demon's home was possibly. was the first thing that came to mind but I would have no ego whatsoever if I was proven completely incorrect as the series moves on.

Baloreilly (1:20:31)
So I just want to note an interesting thing for listeners who are not necessarily familiar with D &D but who are familiar with the books. Charlotte just mentioned the Never Never as a combination of two things. One, the Feywild, the place where the Eldar in the Archfey live. And two, as a place that you travel through the Astral Plane to get to other destinations and planes. Okay, Pat, how about you? What did you think about the Never Never?

Patrick (1:20:56)
Kind of the same thought of Charlotte in terms of like the Feywild. was my initial jaunt through it. And I got the idea, you know, it's the Never maybe something that doesn't exist in our reality, but because it's something that maybe like mortals can't really stay right? Like this is either Never because like, ha, it's a play on Never Neverland, or it's a whimsy, ooh, like Fun and Fairy.

Or it's never never because like you must never go there Simba. Like you can't, you should not do that.

Baloreilly (1:21:27)
So guys, Patrick thinks the Never Never is really dangerous in a place that mortals shouldn't necessarily spend time in because it'd be bad for their health. So we'll have to see if that's true, I guess. talk about the world and lore a little bit. we do anything else, I want to just give you guys open season, and you can do this at any point during this conversation also. promise I will not lie to you.

but I will also not answer any questions that I feel like would spoil anything. So do you have any questions for us about the world or the lore or about something that literally happened in Stormfront and you were like, what the fuck is the deal with that?

Patrick (1:22:10)
I think the question that jumped to my mind, and it jumped early and doesn't seem like him and Murphy have gone through necessarily a ton. it seems like through a bit. clearly, Dresden has a with magic. But enough there that Murphy knows to call them and like...

go through this whole, the consultant. I kind of want to know the of like how Drezdin came to be here get explained? know we kind of have like, ha ha, wizard, he's in the only wizarding L page, it's a joke, but like, conventionally, like how much of a joke is like magic seen as in the world? Like, is there implicit understanding that like,

It exists among like the higher levels or is it like it's completely denied everywhere and very few people know about it? Because it seems like if the Chicago Police Department is like on on brand enough to have a magic consultant from this detective and like the findings of it aren't immediately laughed out as a case. Where exactly where how how real quote unquote is magic in the world?

Baloreilly (1:23:18)
So I'm gonna give you two answers to this, and I'm gonna tell you that they're not complete answers because certain things that you're touching on here are stuff that Adam and I are speculating about literally 25 years after the book was something that you can know canonically is that in the Dresden Files timeline,

There is a story involving Harry, Dresden, and Murphy that takes place before Stormfront where they meet. And there is a reason why Murphy specifically doesn't think he's full of shit. So there's a story called A Restoration of Faith where Murphy goes, ⁓ fuck, I guess you are a wizard. that's why you know if he didn't write, he published it before Stormfront, but that's why Murphy does actually trust him. second thing is what you should consider in the Dresden

is effectively believe in magic to the same extent as they do in our world, magic is actually real. there are certain implications of like, you know, in our world, presumably, magic is not real.

In the Dresden Files universe though, there's this disconnect between how real magic is and how the universe thinks it is. And I'll tell you right now that this is not fully explained, you can make some assumptions based on why the world is basically like our world.

even though magic is real, and parts of it are explained. OK, Charlotte, do you have any questions?

Charlotte (1:24:51)
So all of my questions are things that I imagine would be spoilers. just want to know more about, I like Pat, I want to know more about why this is what Harry is doing with his wizarding skill. That to me is very interesting. Is it because he's trying to avoid the White Council? I think you can kind of surmise some of that even just from what happens in this book, that he's a little down on his luck. how

Baloreilly (1:24:55)
Throw it out there.

Charlotte (1:25:18)
intelligent and how much skill he has it is scratching that this is where he would turn up I guess.

Baloreilly (1:25:23)
So one thing I think I can tell you is that having the Sword of Damocles hanging over your head is a big deal in the wizard So it does make sense that Dresden is not like hanging out with a group of the 20 coolest wizards in their special magic club. I won't... That's not all there is to it. And a lot of it is about who Harry is. And you get that impression by knowing him long enough where...

I feel like it makes perfect sense this is what he's doing, I feel like that's something that should be asking yourself, why is this guy doing this? And it's not something that I feel like you do for certain in the first couple books. jumping off of that,

good did you find the explanations that you got about the hidden supernatural world in the series? We don't see a lot of them, for example, know that can put on a facsimile of human form, and like that's a way that vampires stay hidden.

So how good did you find basically the explanations of the hiddenness of the supernatural world, the ones that you got? And in general, how well integrated did you find Butcher's ability to drop lore about the supernatural?

Charlotte (1:26:47)
liked the explanations Because this is just the first book, I'm glad that it wasn't just a complete lore dump the entire time of, okay, before I go anywhere, let me tell you my entire system of magic. And these are the materials that I will need. I just feel like that would have driven the plot to a screeching halt. So I did like that it was, I need to use this spell now. Well...

I this is how I would do it but without really giving a whole lot of explanation as to why it's just obviously I have to like pull in my emotions in order to bring up this wind and this is what this guy's doing so I did like that it was kind of just thrown in there as he was using it like I'm learning as Harry is doing as to what the magic is capable of I think probably that that style can

only last so long before I'm like, but is that consistent with how you did it the last time? Does that make sense with ⁓ this scenario? So I think that is just the nature of it being the introductory book that you can get away with very, very light touch on explaining how this works. And it makes it, it helps it to feel lived in, right? That, well, Harry's not going to explain it to us every single time. This is his magic. He knows it,

like the back of his hand. So he just does it intuitively to a certain extent. So that being said, did like how well integrated it was. I liked that it was limited explanations, but it did leave me wanting more and hopefully expecting there to be more in the future.

Baloreilly (1:28:17)
Okay, Pat, how about you?

Patrick (1:28:19)
I think I brought up earlier that I do want more explanations, but like Charlotte said, it is the first book. I did appreciate that it kept the plot moving and didn't get bogged down, even though at times I wish it had. I think the explanations were good. I think some of the explanations were kind of explained having gremlins, which is why his spell book isn't on computer, which is why he has and why he's not really good at potions.

and how potions are less like chemistry and more like, well, know, have an idea, you give the right offering, you get the idea, how magic doesn't seem to be an exact science, even though at times it feels like it very much is, like with the case of, if you want to explode someone's heart out of their chest, you need to be really precise in what you're

would love to get a better sense of the scale, I think, going forward is probably the best term I could give it is, you know, do things sit on that scale? But other than that, I liked the explanations. I just won.

Baloreilly (1:29:22)
Yeah, one thing I'll say about that that I think is a really good point that you just brought up is that when the actual effect a wizard is trying to produce is very specific, the magic tends to be very specific and have specific requirements. And when it's like, I want to set that thing on fire, there's kind of a lot of ways to skin a cat. And I think that the intuitiveness of the... ⁓

we're trying to do something really key. This takes a huge ritual and a lot of power. And I don't really care how it gets done, but we gotta do this. for me because as you were mentioning, Patrick, like potions, it in general works off as a system of what ought to be what you get for what you put in. And that means that things that are

very particular, require particularity, and other things don't. Charlotte, I just wanted to say that think that a cool thing about the series that you might enjoy moving forward is that you are going to get more of those explanations, but it's never gonna be like you know everything. And that continuing mystery dovetails with

Harry as a character, not knowing of the cool thing about having his perspective and not having an omniscient narrator is that we learn what he learns and therefore there's always something you could be wondering about with regards to the series. It's one of the reasons we have this podcast in the first place.

really just want to thank you guys again so much. Obviously, your friend or family member just telling you, read this book series and appear on a podcast for me is a request that everyone is really free to say no to. And it a lot to me that you accepted the request,

It means even more to me that you guys did such a great job of actually paying attention to what you were reading to give answers that were honestly really, really good and not just on point with the questions we asked, but really intelligent in terms of stuff that might happen in the series in the future. So want to turn it over to you guys for a last word before we get out of here. So Charlotte?

Charlotte (1:31:55)
So I'm looking forward to continuing to read this series so I can listen to this podcast that I've been hearing about about the series. I think that that would be really fun to be able to do. And I'm also looking forward to eventually listening to this podcast to hear all of the things I said that were completely incorrect about what is to come in the future, because I can only imagine from some smirks that I saw that there might be ⁓ more behind.

what I was saying. No, was very happy to be able to do this. It was super fun. You guys prepped us very well and it's a really delightful book. So I was serious at beginning. I'm looking forward to reading more.

Baloreilly (1:32:36)
Thank you very much, Charlotte, Patrick. How about you?

Patrick (1:32:39)
was a lot of fun. your audience enjoyed two Neophytes of the series, a fun series. I feel that it has a lot of potential.

to be great and, you know, thanks for putting me onto it. I appreciate it.

Baloreilly (1:32:58)
You're very welcome. Thank you.