Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:09)
Welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory where the spoilers go all the way through 12 months. I'm Adam Ruzzo and joining me as always, it's a wild fae receiving a collect call from the Lananchi. It's Brian O'Reilly.

Brian (00:22)
From the Lananji? Of course I'll take Leia, your godson's come to visit you in Faerie? that's wonderful! I'd love to meet him! To shreds, you say?

and his friends. To shreds, you said.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:34)
boy.

not gonna work out well for them. All right, welcome everybody. We're taking a look at chapters 32 and 33 of Grave Peril. That is where Dresden and Michael and Thomas have to forcibly restrain Lydia in his apartment because she's actually been possessed by Kravos. Harry manages to banish Kravos, figures out that it actually is Kravos and not a demon's ghost,

At the end of chapter 32, they travel into the Never Never he gets caught the Lananshi. And then in chapter 33, he negotiates with the Lananshi and then winds up in Bianca's basement. That's what we're talking about today. So Brian, at the beginning of this chapter, Thomas starts by saving Harry's life by jumping in front of him. And I think Thomas winds up with like a bunch of cracked or broken ribs as a result of.

putting himself between Harry and the fireplace that was probably going to be Harry's sentence. So what are brothers for?

Brian (01:31)
Yeah, this is, think, the first time we've seen the White Court take punishment way we're going to in the future. they really kind of dress it up immediately. Jim is showing us without telling us that the White Court is able to regenerate from the kind of injuries that a human would not be able to bounce back from.

So Lydia throws them into the wall that one time. She throws Michael around the one time.

But the fact that Lydia is able to repeatedly bash Dresden's head against the floor with superhuman strength, he's, able to sort of do the rest of the book, suggests that, just like with the baseball bat in Stormfront, Harry's skull is made of that Wolverine adamantium.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:16)
Yeah, that's the only real explanation. It's just that thick, people.

So yeah, after Michael gets his wrist broken and gets basically knocked out by some cracked ribs, Thomas has to come in and restrain her.

So Michael gets hurt restraining Lydia while Harry fails to exercise the demon's ghost. And then of course, after Michael's hurt, Thomas jumps in, uses his white magic to distract the body to fight Kravos over possession of the body's spirit in some degree. And during that one, Harry is able to properly exercise Lydia.

Now, Thomas appears to still be molesting Lydia even after Kravos is gone and Harry tells him to cut it out and Thomas comes in with this as quote, what? She's not unwilling, she's probably just grateful to me for my help. And Harry says to get away again, he says quote, I'm hungry, it won't kill her Dresden, not the first time, you'd be dead right now without me. Just let me know, I said, unquote. So Harry interrupting Thomas from.

arguably going to have his way with someone who maybe isn't really in a position to consent. We're gonna talk about all of that in our question for Bob this week. So hang tight, we're gonna get to that. For now, let's continue.

Because Harry says right here, quote, it all fits now. I know what's going on. So I can finally do something about it. I'm going to go to the townhouse and get everyone out unquote. And then he explains to everybody what he's learned.

Why does that make him so confident that he can suddenly take on a house full of vampires in his weakened state? Does that make any sense to you, Brian?

Brian (03:55)
I think that he just has half of the problems that he had before. Because the whole reason he goes to Bianca's party in the first place is to figure out what's the deal with the nightmare. That's the whole reason he's there. That problem drives him into a situation that he's already decided it's too dangerous for him to put himself in. You know, he did not want to go to Bianca's party. He just does it because dealing with the nightmare is so important.

and it's so likely to get people that he cares about killed that he has to take the risk in order to stop it. And he doesn't get anything out of it. So even when he comes back and he realizes, I'm alive and we made it, now I have two problems. Now I have to deal with the Red Court and the nightmare. And in Harry's mind, he just killed a whole bunch of Red Court vampires. The nightmare problem might be the one that seems the most intractable.

Once he feels like he can deal with that, okay, Red Court vampires die like, you know, a lot of things die. I can figure out how to handle that.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (05:01)
Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking is that he,

had a lot of unknowns around this nightmare, right? It's a demon's go- how do I even do something with that? I tried to use the name early, it didn't really work. I don't have any tools to fight this. But then as he explains in the chapter, like, I beat this punk when he was alive, I can sure as hell beat his pansy ass ghost, essentially. I'm paraphrasing. So that sort of shot in the arm of confidence of-

⁓ I know what we're fighting now.

two episodes ago when Harry goes through and says, okay, the fear was coming and he normally uses anger as his first bulwark against fear. And that didn't work out for him when Bianca's giving away the gifts. And then he uses reason. Well here, he's finally taken knowledge.

and replaced ignorance with that knowledge so that can give him the confidence to face his fears. And I think that, like you said, gets rid of half of his problems from his mind. He no longer needs to worry about the nightmare as much because he knows how he's going to deal with it eventually. So after Harry explains all this, Thomas finally says, okay, let's talk about how we're actually gonna do this.

he uses here? yeah, yeah.

Brian (06:15)
Dresden, I thought we could pool

our resources, work something out with our contacts and spies, perhaps disguise ourselves as caterers and sneak in. He paused. Well, you could pass as a caterer in any case. But if we simply assault her house, we'll all be killed.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (06:31)
Yeah, I love that characterization from Thomas. But of course, Harry's ultimate plan is, we're gonna assault the house. We're just gonna do it from the back door instead. Because the rest of this chapter is

They go straight into the Never Never in order to enact this plan. They're not gonna use spies, they're not gonna sneak in as caterers, they're not gonna use any obvious subterfuge. just thinks they're gonna do a smash and grab through the back window. And when he goes into the Never Never, something occurred to me, Brian. It doesn't look like Leah's garden. Instead, it looks like his apartment. And I thought maybe they entered it from...

out front, in my head that's always been the case. They went outside of his apartment and they, Arpaturum cut through to the Never Never, like on the street in front of his apartment or something like that. But no, there's a line in here that when Bob goes to actually navigate for them through the Never Never, he has to first lead them out and up the stairs.

of the never never version of Harry's apartment. So they're definitely going straight over from his apartment and Brian, I've read my changes. I know that there's a Leah's garden on the other side of that. It's gotta be. So what's going on here?

Brian (07:44)
Well, when you first said this, Adam, I went, well, I mean, she just builds the garden later. But she can't build the garden later, because by the time the next book starts, Leia is infected, Mab has taken over her debt, and as far as we know, she doesn't get off the roof of Archidistor until changes. So when does she have time to create mountains of bones with her garden garden?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (08:11)
I had the same question because it occurred to me that, maybe there's a point between when she gets infected and when she actually gets found out by Mab and Frozen, where she builds the garden after the fact, and because she wouldn't have necessarily needed the garden before he started the war. Isn't that what caused so many people to want to assassinate him through a back door? But then we went through and actually read changes and she describes how...

No, she's been watching him from the never never side his whole life. And she even says like, I've stopped so many things from getting to you from that side. And it's implied that she's been doing that his whole life, not just after he started the Red Court war and became a target on the international supernatural stage. So I don't know, how do we fit these two things here, Brian? Is there something guarding that side that just doesn't look like a garden right now?

Brian (09:05)
So I think, Adam, one possibility is simply that this is a continuity error, and that's totally possible.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (09:12)
There's our Doylist

explanation. Yeah, it's probably the most likely to be honest. Jim hadn't come up with the concept of the garden yet.

Brian (09:16)
Right.

But I think that in universe this can be explained. There is a Watsonian way to sort of square the circle here, which is, you know, even in changes, Harry meets the, you know, sandworm of the garden, there's only one of them. And then he cuts it in half. then after, now I've got two gaping moths to feed, you know? And that means that that's never happened before.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (09:39)
Yeah.

Brian (09:45)
which suggests that this, the garden, is Leia's the Primrose Path, is Leia's, you know, sort of latest and greatest set of defenses, which she has only created since her release from Arctis Tor sometime before changes by, you know, a couple years after proven guilty, but before changes.

But before then, she could certainly have other guardians just as deadly waiting outside Dresden's apartment on the Never Never side. Well, why don't we see them then? Leia tells us in changes that, you know, we, of course they have to attack somebody who looks like you, Harry. I can't let a shape shifter just waltz in because Leia is evil.

in Chicago, or in the part of the Never Never near Chicago. She's looking for Dresden. She wants him to go to the Never Never. She wants him to stay there long enough for her to track him down. She probably told whatever guardian she has guarding the house, hey, stand down if anything that looks like Harry

comes in from the mortal side, I want to talk to him. So Harry and Michael and Thomas and Bob are walking out of a house, you know, that's actually a Baba Yaga, know, chicken-legged, you know, demon thing. But it's just inactive right now because Leia doesn't want to spook him.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (11:12)
Ha

Yeah, I could definitely see that as it works in my headcanon. Headcanon accepted. Now, the next thing to talk about is Harry's actual plan here. Because when I was reading through this chapter, trying to see it from the perspective of a first-time reader, because it's been more than a decade since I read these books for the first time. And I'm trying to see it from the perspective of them. And you do have Bob looking to...

Michael and Thomas saying, excuse me, have either of you told Harry what a brainless plan this is? And Thomas says, I did, it didn't do much good. So obviously the other characters are criticizing this plan of sneaking in the back door, but from our perspective in Harry's head, he is so confident that this is going to work and he's...

actually come up with something that seems kind of plausibly sneaky from our perspective. We haven't seen the wider world of the Dresden Files yet. As new readers, we wouldn't go, well, wouldn't she be watching that gate? Maybe he has a plan to take out whatever guardian is guarding that side. We're along for the ride, we're gonna see. Yeah, okay, this could work. But in, obviously, it does not work because at the end of this next chapter,

He's going to wind up in Bianca's basement in a complete ambush, surrounded by enemies with no allies to help him and get completely captured. And makes him, in retrospect, look really dumb.

Brian (12:48)
think that something we have to realize as long time readers is that we lose sight of how good the plan to sneaking into Bianca's place is while simultaneously slightly over rating how good the plan with Leia is because as future readers we know, ⁓ yeah, the plan with Leia is totally going to work because given the

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (13:15)
The play with Leah, you're

referring to the toadstool, right?

Brian (13:18)
Right,

because the imperatives that she's under means that she really can't let him die. And the plan of Bianca is definitely not going to work. There's, you know, a 500 year old vampire in Ortega giving her advice from one side and, you know, black court sorceress and mob and cowls there. Like she's going to be ready for somebody coming in through the never never. But think about this from the perspective of both the first time reader and Dresden.

We've dealt with not only the first two books, Adam, but a restoration of faith and Welcome to the Jungle. Of all of the enemies that Tresden has had in all of those books, I think the only one this ploy wouldn't work on is the hag from Welcome to the Jungle, probably. I mean, the street wolves aren't expecting anybody to come in through the Never Never. The FBI isn't expecting it.

McFin isn't ⁓ expecting it. Tara West, maybe. I don't know how she deals with the never never. Sells.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (14:17)
Certainly

Victor Sells wouldn't have that knowledge, I don't think.

Brian (14:20)
Right, Marcon, not until he hires somebody like Garde would he realize that that's something that Dresden could do. In Restoration of Faith, the troll might be Faye, but that doesn't mean you can't sneak up on it. Even the hag might be so arrogant about how much better she is than a wizard that she won't even think of walling off the Neverneverside. It's only a Redcourt vampire, which is a combination of Fragile

and sneaky and needs to protect itself and old and organized enough to actually have institutional memory about dealing with wizards that would actually be able to stop something like this. And Harry probably realizes that most of the time, know, someone like his grandfather doesn't need to do this kind of sneaking around. They can throw a satellite at the place.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (15:14)
Yeah, the other element to consider here is that Harry has likely been imparted by Ebenezer and every, probably even Justin. Hey, the Never Never is no joke. You don't just go messing around in there. Remember, Margaret Le Fay was seen as kind of crazy to be just walking around in the Never Never all the time. Like, that's a super big risk. You just can't do that.

even later in the very next book, the wizards of the White Council are not willing to just walk through the Never Never to get places. They need to seek permission from the Winter Queen in order to do so. So I think what Harry's doing here, we have to remember, is actually extremely risky, which is why he thinks it's going to work, because Bianca wouldn't expect it, because

nobody sane just goes and wanders through fairy. And the only reason he might be able to do it is because he has a guide. Bob is telling him exactly where to go. If he didn't have Bob, this plan would not be feasible because he would be wandering around the Never Never and have no idea how to get from his apartment to Bianca's back door. So from that perspective, it might make a lot of sense to him. Unfortunately for him, his opponent,

is also extremely competent and clever. And so I think, don't know how, and I'd like to talk to some people who read this for the first time. I really hope we can get Patrick Charlotte to come back on to talk about their experiences with these books for the first time, because I'd love to hear how, this trap is triggered, do they see it as, ⁓ man, the villain there was real sneaky, or do they see it like,

course she has a guard for the back door, Dresden, what are you, crazy? So I can't really put myself in that head space, but I think if you try to consider all those other elements about, well, it's really crazy unless you have Bob, then maybe it does make more sense that he's confident this is going to work.

Brian (17:20)
So Adam, are you familiar with the term Indy Poly

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (17:25)
I don't think so.

Brian (17:25)
So in TV troops, you know, they have all kinds of gambits classified. And one of them is the indie play, which is yes, the favorite plan of almost every action hero, make it up as you go. Dr. Jones never needs a plan B because he never has a plan A.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (17:33)
as in Indiana Jones.

That's right.

Brian (17:44)
And I think that the problem that Harry's having here is this is a great in-deploy. It's dangerous and the bad guys couldn't see it coming. However, what he doesn't realize is that the bad guys are also constantly dealing with James Bond, who is doing this on purpose regularly. And what I mean is, yes, for someone in Dresden's position,

and for most wizards, period, this is a crazy dangerous thing you would never think to do. But for the kind of wizards who try to single-handedly bring down a city's worth of Red Court vampires, going in through the never never is just, okay, step one, we're doing that, right? They're James Bond, that's what they're always planning on. So Harry inadvertently stumbles on,

what is the tradecraft best practice, it's just he doesn't realize that the people who do this, which is, you know, Lucio and and Ebenezer, only people who are ludicrously powerful heavy hitters would do everything he's doing just also with a lot more firepower and reflex spells set up and, you know, just

all kinds of weaponry at their it's the the weird thing about this plan is it's not as stupid as Thomas and Bob think it is because it probably is the best way for Harry to assault this house. It's just that he doesn't do any of the other things he would have to do to have a chance of this really working out.

one of which being, as we'll see, very carefully planning exactly where he wants to enter the house.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (19:34)
Yeah, and the next things that happen here really show that. So Bob leads them into Faerie and Harry's like, you screwed up, we shouldn't be here. And Bob's like, it's the biggest place in the Never, you can't there from here without going through the Never Never. So They hear.

Leah behind them and they start running right? Bob says that bridge right there, that's the end of fairy. know, once we get through that, it's just like ⁓ a mile or so and then we can get into her townhouse through the quote unquote back door at that point. So they're rushing for the bridge, Brian. And right when they get there,

Thomas and Michael make it across and Harry's just about to step onto the bridge when a golden lariat comes around his throat and Leah has him. Let's say for the sake of argument, Harry had been two steps further along and he made it to the bridge and he's officially quote unquote out of Ferry. What's to stop Leah from just like following him out of Ferry and still catching him?

Brian (20:29)
Yeah, I think from a Doyleist perspective, again, Jim hadn't nailed down exactly how the Never Never worked at this point. But I think, again, from a Watsonian perspective, it's pretty easy to square the circle here. So we haven't been to very many places in the Never Never that are outside of Faerie. That's really kind of a big deal. Even all of the ways that the Wardens take to Edinburgh.

after summer night are through Faerie because Mab's given them permission to use her paths. So the wizards are constantly traveling through Faerie whenever we're in the Never Never, we're in Faerie. We're just, even when we're in the Earl King's hall in Changes, we're in Wildfae, which is presumably part of Faerie. Adam, you mentioned the only time we're not in Faerie is presumably in Changes when we're following

Margaret Le Fay's amulet.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:23)
Yeah, certain of those paths that they take definitely don't necessarily feel like any other fairy places that we've felt before. They feel weirder, wilder, and things like that. So I could definitely see some of those places being outside of fairy, but think of all the other places that we have been. Okay, the Outer Gates might be technically outside of fairy, or maybe it's technically in fairy. But ⁓ Arctis Tor, definitely in fairy, and

when we were in Agatha Hagglethorn's domain, technically that wasn't in Faerie, but it was also its own isolated thing. There wasn't anything else other than Agatha that had domain there, but we know that there's things like demons and like a hell portion of the Never Never. We know that there's Hades. Hades is outside of the Faerie. So we have been there, but that was a very specific vault entrance that they were going through. So.

Yeah, there's other spots outside of Ferry and it's entirely possible to say, okay, what if that bridge led to a different underworld or Mount Olympus or something, some other piece of human imagined universe that's not part of the Seelie or Unseelie courts, they might not be allowed to go there without some kind of major diplomatic incident.

Brian (22:37)
if you walk into Narnia without asking Aslan, the lion might have words with you. you know, in this case, okay, sure, Narnia probably doesn't have enough belief to actually exist in the Never Never,

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (22:43)
Mmm.

Brian (22:51)
So if Leia is about to cross into the domain of Anubis, it might be the case that it would cause a major sort of international incident if she attempted to take a prisoner from the Egyptian underworld. We have no idea where this bridge leads. It might be as simple as to some unclaimed portion of the Never Never, but it's possible that Leia literally cannot

it because it would be like the American police trying to make an arrest in Canada. It's outside her jurisdiction.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (23:25)
Yeah, and I think that seems to be what the actual text is operating under because Harry seems so certain that all we have to do is make it to the bridge and we'll be safe. So maybe it's something that he does know that just isn't stated explicitly on the page. So that brings us to chapter 33, Brian. And in chapter 33, Michael and Thomas, it's such a brilliant plan here to distract Leah long enough to let Harry eat.

the toadstool, which he was hoping not to do, right? He didn't eat the toadstool when they got into Faerie, assuming he would be caught. That would be ridiculous. It really is a massive risk on his own personal health that if he eats this toadstool, he better have a really good reason. But Leah's not gonna let him do that unless they have a really good distraction. So pulling out and throwing aluminum nails at Leah, it's just such a brilliant move because it's not actually offensive.

It doesn't actually bring iron in. It doesn't infuriate the fey. It just works as a, ⁓ sorry, tricked you. Those are well within the rules of dealing with the fey.

Brian (24:29)
And I think it's actually very important that they did that because if it had been iron nails, I believe Leia could demand the potion from Michael later as recompense. But she has no grounds to because they haven't given any offense and they don't owe her anything.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (24:49)
Yeah, and I think I've said this a couple of times leading up to this, but now that we're finally here, A, that plan was very smart, that was a great distraction, it, ⁓ Jim wrote it so well, too, where the reader was like, what's the, wow, a bunch of nails, uh-oh, and then Leah is immediately infuriated, and you're like, boy, they just, no, ⁓ aluminum, okay, that's perfect. So the reader gets to come along with that little roller coaster of a journey right there, right? And at the same time,

the plan for him to eat Toadstool. Like he's finally thinking far enough to head to like, ⁓ no, I don't need to plan for this. I'll just try to avoid Leah. That's his plan, right? That's what, when they go to fight Agatha Hagglethorn, that's his plan. I just, we'll get in and we'll get out before she sees we're there. He's finally planning for what if things go wrong, which is...

certainly been a blind spot in most of his plans up until this book. And that's why it's very satisfying that he's planned for this and it's successful.

And in the actual text is, you you will not attempt to harm my life or my freedom for a year and a day. And that actually works. He's finally, Brian, he's finally thinking beyond the current crisis. The last two times he made a deal with Leah, it was, help me deal with this specific problem I have.

right now, the first time it was Justin, the second time it was the nightmare, he's finally saying, not only do I want you to help me deal with this problem, I want you to stay away from me for a whole year so I can deal with all the other problems that are coming up as a result of all this.

Brian (26:22)
And the best part about this plan is that Jim's not making any of this up. This mushroom really is that toxic. It really does have a toxicity that occurs over this time horizon, taking several hours to take effect. But most people who are treated within 36 hours do recover without any permanent damage.

So all of that works. And as readers who have gotten deeper into the series, we really know how brilliant this plan is. Now, Harry doesn't know this at the time. We can't give him credit for it, but this is genius. Harry and Michael and Thomas are trying to drive this year-in-a-day bargain because they think that, you know, Leia will handle that.

a year and a day is better than no prize at all. So she'll put up with that bargain. What they don't know is they could have potentially gotten her to renege on the entire obligation because she is required not to let Harry die. She basically can't not let him take the antidote. And if the only way he'll do it is letting him go, she kind of has to do that.

So he could have even driven a harder bargain here, given the position that Leia's in. However, not only could he have driven a harder bargain, potentially, because Leia's his godmother,

but because he doesn't drive a harder bargain, he's not really embarrassing the Lananchi as much as maybe he could have. They come off as fairly gracious in this moment because they are limiting what they ask for. Leah is not going to hold a grudge really against anybody involved in this escapade, which would be terrible for them later on.

because they don't really put the screws to her as much as they potentially could have.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (28:22)
Yeah, at this point, it does make sense that she would be really mad. I can't imagine that a mortal has gotten the better of her. And we talked about how Susan, probably you could argue, got the better of her earlier on in the previous evening because she made that trade with the Lananshi for her memory and then got her memory back the very next night as a result of help from Dresden. So she theoretically gained those memories and then immediately lost them.

But we also speculated that maybe the Lananshi was just looking for an excuse to help Harry and that that bargain didn't mean a lot to her. So this one though, this is a mortal actually getting the better of her in a deal. She should be able to take him. He's owes himself to her. He's already got that obligation, but now he's put himself in this position where

the only winning move for her is to play his game, otherwise she loses him. Again, ignoring the whole godmother element of it, because Harry doesn't know that at this point, and she can't tell him, obviously, she's not going to, it gives away way too many cards. So this is just infuriating for her because she's been out-manipulated here. And then she says, your mother spoke as you do near the end. So this is specifically with

Harry trying to explain to her why he's willing to go and risk his life in this way, rather than coming with her. She's offering him this life of peace and pleasant happiness, right? She showed him this glorious sense of relief from his burdens.

when he was at the party and she said, this is the way it will be if you just come with me, I can make everything better for you. And she doesn't understand, she can't comprehend. Why is he resisting peace? Why is he resisting all of this better future for himself? And during that conversation, he says, I have to, no one else can do this. They need me, I owe it to them.

and that's what she compares to the way his mother used to speak. How does that phrasing compare to your sort of vision of Margaret Le Fay knowing what we know in the future of the books?

Brian (30:48)
Yeah, so that is I think very telling. I mean, think of the essentially journey that Leia is going on here. Dresden, in her mind, is a stupid child at this point. He is young, he doesn't know what's good for him, and she needs to keep him from getting himself killed because he is an important tool in the plans of Team Inside.

Shall we say.

And Dresden, like a child, is stubbornly refusing to do what's best for him because he wants to do some trivial thing that will make him look good in the eyes of his peers. That's how Leia sees this. She doesn't think of morality, you know, the way you and I do.

And that confuses the hell out of Leia. She doesn't understand how any of that's possible. But she now has to wonder, is he a stupid child or do I need to start treating him like someone with agency? Someone who's making decisions for reasons that I might disagree with, but which are articulable and are not crazy and are not stupid.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (31:46)
you

Brian (31:56)
And that's when she compares him to his mother. So what does this tell us about Margaret? Margaret was somebody who Leia had to take seriously. Somebody who had plans, who felt like she had a moral duty to do things that Leia had to put in effort to understand so she could see the whole picture. Leia is the person

who runs the outer gates when Mab is out of town. If Maggie Dresden was somebody who had to make the Lananchi ponder, Maggie Dresden was somebody who was playing chess on a level that essentially Mab does.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:38)
Yeah, and to me, this does speak at least somewhat to Margaret Le Fay's character, right? The thing that Harry says that causes Leah to say, that reminds me of your mother, is when Harry says, no one else can do this, they need me, I owe it to them. And Leah echoes him saying,

them your life. You're mad, Harry Dresden. Perhaps it comes of your mother. So that to me suggests that his mother was someone willing to lay down her life for the cause that she believed in. And based on what we learned later, where they describe her as something of a rebel in the White Council that would...

speak about moral issues and about change in the White Council for moral reasons and stand up and speak truth to power, that to me feels very consistent.

Brian (33:34)
Yeah, I think we're definitely getting a clue here that Harry doesn't really pick up on in the moment that his mother made sacrifices, potentially sacrifices of her life, in order to keep people safe. Now we as readers know that, but not only does Harry not really pick up on that.

Thomas doesn't have an on-page reaction here.

And I wonder if Jim did that on purpose.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (34:03)
yeah. I mean, he does respond later, but it's not to what, perhaps it comes of your mother, right? He doesn't react to Leah's specific thing. You're right. And it could be that he is reacting, but it's happening behind Harry's back. So we never see the reaction, because we're in Harry's perspective. That is a really good point. Thomas does react to is when Harry reveals, hey, I'm the one that ate the deadly poison, Michael. I don't much care for it myself.

Thomas blinked at me, quote, you mean you were telling the truth? I thought you were lying, bluffing. And Harry says, I don't bluff if I can't help it, I'm just not good at it. And Harry and Thomas says, you're godmother's right, you you're mad as a hatter, nutty as a fruitcake. And then Harry says, crazy like a fox. And that's definitely the way that this plan comes off in the end. Crazy like a fox, it can work.

because of how crazy it is.

Brian (35:02)
It's probably the best plan he's come up with in the series so far, and it is crazy like a fox, and it has to be, because there's no way he's going to actually out-plan the Lananchi without sort of, bluffing a little bit, which is what he's kind of doing here. He doesn't really want to die. He's hoping she'll back down and fold her cards. But I do love that Jim gives Thomas this, because on page...

It just seems to be, yeah, I Thomas is a sneaky vampire. Of course he thinks everyone's lying, because that's what he would do. But it also gives Thomas as Harry's brother some cover. Well, he thought Harry was just lying. So of course he didn't object to the part of the plan where Harry said, well, then I'll take the told stool, because Thomas is like, you know, you'll palm it or whatever, you know, exactly. Yeah, so we...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (35:52)
Yeah, yeah, you'll take it, Wink. Exactly, yeah. I

don't need any further explanation. I get the play. I've done this before.

Brian (36:01)
Right, and

that's great because it allows us to, looking back on this as future readers, not think that Thomas was being callous with his brother's life in the moment or letting Harry risk it unnecessarily or agreeing to a plan where his main objective, keeping his little brother alive, would be placed at risk. Thomas literally just would actually do it.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (36:26)
Yeah, that is a great characterization of him. Now, we gotta move on because then after Harry rings the agreement out of Leah,

the exact wording of the deal is that, you'd be obligated to let him go and bound for a year and a day to do no harm to him or his freedom so long as he remains in the mortal world. Well, that so long as he remains in the mortal world there is the loophole that Leah is going to drive a truck through because right after this, she holds out what appears to be a knife and

waves it around to the four corners, north, south, east, and west, and calls in some favors, essentially. Leah says, quote, many there are who owe me. I will not be cheated of you. You have had the potion. You would not have placed your life in such jeopardy without a cure to hand. I will raise no hand against you, but they will bring you to me. One way or another, Harry Dresden, you will be mine this night. Now,

When I first read this, Brian, it kind of sounds like she's breaking the terms of the deal. She said, I will lay no hand against you nor your freedom, essentially. But should she be able to call in a bunch of mercenaries to go hunt him down? That seems like she's breaking the deal.

Brian (37:46)
Yeah, I think if we were to take her wording towards Harry here as a literal statement of her actions, it would constitute breaking this bargain, which she, as a Fae, literally can't do, right? So what's gotta be going on here? Well, what I thought was, Leia's telling Harry what the effect of what she did is.

there are people who owe her favors who are going to bring Harry to her, which she still wants because she doesn't want him risking his life. She thinks this is foolish and she needs to keep him safe. But that's not how she phrased it

while she is making what is effectively a unilateral contract form of a bargain. Now, a unilateral contract is an open offer that anyone can fulfill by completing a specific action or task. So it doesn't need to be, I make a contract with you if I put up a reward saying, you know, find my dog $25, whoever brings me the dog gets the money. She's not putting out a wanted poster for her.

That's not the situation she's setting up. It's not a unilateral contract. What Leia is doing must be, right? Saying, ⁓ hey, everybody in fairy, my godson, Harry, have you met him? My godson, Harry? No? he's in fairy right now. You the godson that I'm sworn to protect and keep anything bad from happening to him?

Yeah, he's in fairy if you want to meet him. Now, if you owe Leia a favor, if you owe the Lananshi, what are you immediately thinking? Well, stupid of her to let me know that, but let me go kidnap this godson so I can trade his life for the release of, you know, whatever favor I have with the Lananshi. Boom, get me out of that obligation. Leia's not laying out a bargain that would break the terms of the agreement. Leia's just stating some information.

and letting people act as they may. It's a Batman Gambit app.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:47)
Yeah, that's entirely possible. And it's also, when I first read this, I'm like, you know, the clause there is so long as he remains in the mortal world. Well, he's not in the mortal world yet, so she can still mess with him. But the way that she phrases it, I will not seek you, but you have made no such bargain with others, and then many there are who owe me, et cetera, et cetera. So to me, that always felt like she was breaking the bargain. And...

Brian, there is one way to explain that. How can she break winter law? Well, we know that beings that are infected with nemesis can act against their nature, including a she can tell a lie, or maybe a she can break a bargain. And maybe that's something that literally this is how Mab figured out that she was infected, that something was wrong. She felt.

when one of her vassals broke their word in this way. And the reason that I think this has something to do with it is because of that very first sentence we get when he turns to look at his godmother and it says, she raised in her hand something dark and gleaming, maybe a knife, unquote. We know that the knife she just received at the party is the vector.

that gets her infected. So maybe she literally just got infected now when she touched the knife and that is why she suddenly, because she does go from zero to 60 here, right? She goes from, why would you do this to you? it sounds so much like your mother to, you cannot escape me, muahaha, which feels very out of place at that moment. So maybe she literally,

touched the knife with this emotion in mind and it was able to wheedle its way in and use that to get in there, infect her and make her act against her nature in this moment. I don't have a lot of support for that, but I think it sounds like a cool explanation.

Brian (41:52)
You know, I really love that because Jim can totally say no. And I think that the explanation that I gave before about her just informing people what's going on and then knowing what they'll do, I think that that is consistent. But the reason why what you just said is so perfect is Adam, after this moment,

When is the next time we see the Lananchi?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:20)
It's arced his tour and proven guilty, right? Because in the very next book, her debt has already been traded away to Mab, presumably because Mab had to imprison her to take the knife away.

Brian (42:32)
So it makes sense. mean, Leia's been hanging around Chicago helping Harry out for the entirety of this book. Yet in the final hour where he's, you know, going to be really put to the sword at the end of Grave Peril, she's nowhere to be found. If this is the moment she's infected, that explains everything. So.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:56)
Right, and it

would be an insidious infection, right? It would get in and just like juice up her anger at being duped and being embarrassed by this mortal getting the better of her. Like that's how it would get in. And this is an exact perfect moment for that to happen.

Brian (43:13)
So I think that's definitely a great call out have to see if we can get another interview with Jim and ask him to confirm or deny Leia is infected in chapter 33 of Grave Peril.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (43:25)
Yeah, would love to see that happen. So Michael and Thomas and Harry are there on the bridge. She can't do anything, but all these hunters are about to show up and they come to the conclusion that Michael and Thomas are gonna try to hold the hunter So that Harry can get to where he needs to go. And it turns out that maybe Leah couldn't cross the bridge. We were speculating about that earlier, but these hunters sure as hell can, but they're hot on his heels right as he gets

to where Bob says, tear right through there, that's where you wanna go, but Bob, man, he tries to tell Harry, but does he really? This is one of those things on TV tropes known as the no time to explain trope, right? The first thing that happens is as he's running towards the tree or wherever it is, getting ready to part the curtain, Bob says, ⁓ Harry, wait a minute, Harry, I really think you ought to hear this.

And he says, not now, Bob, and then he goes through. If Bob had just said, Harry, it's a trap, don't go through, instead of trying to say, ⁓ wait, I gotta explain, you gotta let me explain, boss. Ugh, it's so frustrating to see this in play here. There's gotta be a better way, Brian.

Brian (44:34)
And there's two obvious things Jim could have done. Either one, Bob says that, and then Harry goes, ⁓ geez, thanks Bob, tell me where I should go. And he enters the townhouse at another place and is captured. We know they're on alert. They were ready to spring a trap on him. So he just happens to get captured later. And you know, he looks a little bit less incompetent. It's a little bit higher tension, but that takes longer.

and then Jim has to come up with some reason they're able to take him alive, even though they don't get as utter of a drop on him. Or Bob just says, Harry, it's a trap. And Harry goes, you know, well, I can't get stuck here. And there's a hunter right on his heels. And he just goes through because he feels like he has no choice, you know, out of the frying pan into the fire, but with his eyes open. And I think the only reason Jim doesn't do that is because it is

funnier that Harry doesn't know he's jumping out of the frying pan into the fire, but it doesn't really work because the fact that he's captured by the Red Court isn't something that you can really play for laughs here.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (45:40)
Yeah, and it's not even necessarily the joke of it. I think it's more of like, Jim wanted to reveal this trap by revealing that Harry found himself surrounded by a ring of vampires, right? And then have Bianca come in and gloat and be like, of course, a guard for every door. Do you think me a fool, Mr. Dresden? Right, and if Bob revealed that it was a trap,

before you got to that and then there, ⁓ there was vampires all around me, it really sort of lessens the impact of that. You realize that he's walking into a trap a few paragraphs early. So I can see why Jim did what he did. And it's possible that this would really only bother people on a reread because they know the trap is there.

And they're like, Bob, you could have warned him. You had time. Why did you let this happen? But to be honest, Brian, that second one is my favorite way that he could have done it because literally something snags at the corner of his duster as he's jumping through the portal. So they are right on his heels. if ⁓ Bob was to say something like, I think the curtain is weak here.

there might be something on the other side. He's like, gonna have to risk it and then like jump through. I think that would accomplish exactly what Jim wanted, not revealing that it's definitely a trap, but that he's foreshadowing, right? When Bob says, Harry, wait a minute, I really think you want to hear this, he's foreshadowing something is wrong. And that's all you really needed to do. If Bob had been a little bit more specific, then it would have worked a little better in my opinion. But it's a very minor quibble because

This reveal is legitimately scary.

Brian (47:24)
And I think it's important to recognize that, yes, in the moment Bianca's playing it off as a guard for every door, and yes, as we said, it does make sense that the Red Court is prepared for something like this, even if Harry doesn't realize they would be. But also remember, Cowell was at this party. So of course there's no way Dresden's getting in through the Never Never. They've got a wizard advising them on security, presumably.

So, even if this was a plan that Bob thought was foolhardy, he probably didn't expect something like this until the moment he sensed it.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (48:00)
Yeah, that's entirely true. He maybe didn't realize it was a trap. He just was like, wait a minute, this could mean something. no, wait, Harry, don't, and then it's too late, right? He's processing it over those, and it sounds like the way, when you're reading it, feels like it could have been 10 seconds. Maybe it was like three or four seconds. Maybe he didn't really have time to process it and get the information out of there, but that is something that's bugged me a little bit, but I could definitely see way that you described it works a little better in my head now.

So we're gonna stop right there just before we get to the end of chapter 33. And we're gonna pick up with that during the next time, because it fits a lot better with what's happening in chapter 34. So one thing to note, if you're listening to this as it's being released, that is May 1st, 2026, there will not...

be a show next week, May 8th. We are taking the week off because May is a five Friday month, so we are still gonna put out the same three shows plus a Patreon episode in May, but we get one week off where we're not gonna do anything and we're gonna take our own little vacation here.

Brian (49:02)
And by not do anything, of course mean read outlaws so we can eventually put out content on outlaw.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:08)
Exactly. We're going to need to get that started.

So no show next week. We will be back with the next set of chapters, 34, 35 and 36 the week after that on May 15th.

right, and with that out of the way, it's time for our question for Bob.

Brian (49:27)
So Bob, you met Thomas almost the same time Harry did. I know this isn't really your strong suit, but was he a good person when you met him?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:36)
So yeah, Bob can't make it this week. I don't think he'd have a lot to say on this subject. Morality's always been a problem for him. But he said this week he couldn't make it because he's trying to prevent some city inspectors from digging around in the castle. And apparently he's doing that by convincing them it might explode if they poke around too much.

Brian (49:59)
worked with Bianca in the next chapter with Harry's gear, but Adam, does he realize what city building inspectors do?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (50:06)
Yeah, I think if he points out that it might explode at touched, they're going to have a lot of questions. But in this case, we'll just have to deal with the fallout as it comes. So here's the question for this week. Is Thomas a good person when we meet him? And when we asked this to the Reddit, we got a number of different answers. Interestingly, and sort of expectedly, we didn't have anybody that unequivocally just said, yes, he absolutely is a good person when we meet him.

He's much more portrayed in some morally grays, but we're gonna start from the most extreme version. Powderkeger and Elthich47 took this sort of hard no position, sort of the devil's advocate, because everybody wants to like Thomas, right? Everybody tries to make excuses for him and say, well, it's great I'm on a curve, see where he grew up. We'll get to those points of view, but we're gonna start with the ones that are like, no, he is not a good person when we meet him. So.

For example, Powderkeger wants us to say, look at his actions throughout the series in a very uncharitable way and try to see what they look like from that perspective. Because through most of the series, we're in Harry's head, we're seeing it through a charitable lens. So here's what it looks like if it's an uncharitable lens that you look at his actions through. He addicted a minor to his life-sucking sex powers.

He raped a sentient being to death. We're talking about the hag in his short story, Backup, used his life-sucking sex powers to addict and take money from innocent, wealthy women at the salon. He worked almost single-handedly to protect Wraith's position as the dominant house in the White Council.

He raped several teenage girls to death and looked back at the memory with arousal at the end of Small Favor. He nearly ate the barely legal Molly in Changes. He attempted an assassination of a supernatural figurehead at the direction of Nemesis. And in this very set of chapters that we were talking about, he tried to go to town on Lydia.

right after she'd been through a horrifying, traumatic experience in which control of her body was taken away from her. Those are not the actions of a good person. And so to sum this up, Powderkeger says nearly every single heroic action we see Thomas do could be viewed as protecting himself, Justine, who we know that his hunger likes just as much as he does, or his family, including Harry, who does provide him with money status and protection, et cetera. So,

Looking at it from that perspective, Brian, that is quite a lot of morally dubious at best, but just plain old flat-out immoral actions.

Brian (52:47)
Yeah, and look, there's not a lot to say in Thomas's defense on some of those points. One thing that we should be clear about, and Elphich 47 brought up, something that the Dresden Files timeline on Jim Butcher's website does say, that, know, Justine is, you know, it seems like 16 years old,

So Michael guesses that in Grave Peril, Justine can't be more than 19. We're treating this as Jim basically telling us Justine is 19. If she's actually 23, none of this matters. She's certainly over 18 when Thomas meets her. But because of how the timeline actually works out, it seems as though at the time of Grave Peril, Justine and Thomas have only known each other

for about a year, which means that, maybe less than a year, which means that Justine was probably exactly 18 or 19 when Thomas met her at the club, and he was 29, presumably, because it was just before Stormfront, and he's five years older than Harry. Now, that's still, you know, kind of icky, and I don't really like the idea of a...

29 year old dating an 18 year old, but the age gap in the official timeline does appear to be a little bit too wide. It was not 30 and 16.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (54:15)
Yeah, it's a little bit more egregious if you look at it that way. But as you said, if the fact that he addicted a minor to his sex powers was the hangup for you, then there may be some other problems as opposed to just anybody. So the other elements in here, right? Raping a sentient being to death, true, although it's...

established pretty clearly that the hag is kind of irredeemably evil in that story and that she has to be killed. Is it kinder to have her go out that way as opposed to just shooting her in the head? I don't know, that's an argument for other people to have. We don't have that kind of time. But the other elements in here, again,

you could make arguments on both sides. It was just an interesting ⁓ exercise to look at this from the least charitable perspective because it really does make him look more like a monster.

Brian (55:15)
Now, the next answer is that Thomas isn't a good person, not because he's just simply evil, but because feeling bad about being a monster doesn't make you not bad. And that's what Kotick Neutral for the Wind says. At this point in the story, I think Thomas feels guilty for what he does to survive, but he hasn't done

anything to act on that guilt yet. When a person does something he knows is wrong, he can say sorry all he wants. It won't mean anything until he changes his pattern of harmful behavior.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (55:49)
Yeah, and that's a really good way to encapsulate this, right? Thomas is not yet a good person because he hasn't enacted any of the changes that we'll see him do to deal with the guilt he might be feeling. And I'm guessing that whatever guilt he is feeling at this point is much less pronounced because of the environment he's grown up in where his entire family takes...

much worse versions of this completely for granted and without worrying or moralizing over any of it.

Brian (56:24)
And I think it's important to realize that the difference between this position and the one that Pater Kegger and Elf itch are sort of staking out as devil's advocates is really whether you read Thomas's glib dismissal of his behavior as a protective mechanism to keep people in the white court from thinking he's or as his actual feelings. So if he's actually feeling that, well, that's.

ordering on if he's just doing it to cover the fact that he's deeply uncomfortable with the lifestyle he's living, well, that doesn't make you good. However, another way to see it is that Thomas isn't a good person, but he's not necessarily a bad one either.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (57:11)
argues that Thomas is neither good nor bad when we meet him. He specifically avoids harming people, but he's also not going out of his way to help people the way that Harry is. Quote, I think he's representative of a character archetype that Butcher likes to play with. A neutral character with a choice to go good or series.

I don't think Thomas has tipped one way or the other just yet." Beginning Sun 247 also provided us with another excellent analogy along these lines saying, quote, someone said that if you could teach a lion to talk, you still wouldn't understand it. Thomas is a creature that looks human and trying to tie him down with our morality is tough. I feel that he mostly qualifies as a monster who really wants to not be a monster at this point. Unquote.

Brian (57:58)
Yeah, and a lion kills people all the time, but we don't say that the lion is morally wrong to do so. We think that their predatory instincts are, you know, so much stronger than their, you know, sapience that we can't really assign moral agency to them. Now, Thomas is obviously more sapient than a lion is, but you could definitely argue that Thomas isn't doing anything

that actually harms innocents, as far as we know, to a much greater extent than other people we would consider to be, you know, maybe not our best friends, but fairly normal human beings. Thomas doesn't necessarily treat those people in a way that we might find legal and ethical in terms of how he engages, but from a-

purely consequentialist perspective, he might not have that much red in his ledger. So if you look at it that way, I mean maybe he's not a good person, but maybe he hasn't done quite enough bad to be considered a bad person, rather than just a person who has done some bad things.

The other option is that, yes, he is a good person because he's exactly as good as he thinks he can be. an angle we hadn't thought about yet comes to us courtesy of completely batshit. I think he's as good of a person as he thinks he can be at the time.

I'd say that it's unreasonable to condemn someone for not walking a better path if they aren't actually aware a better path even exists. Tanath I. Kaul takes a look at Thomas from multiple levels, pointing out that utilitarian framing. As a person, average maybe leaning slightly back. As a white court vampire,

good, about as good as you can be. So on a grand scale, maybe he's already good if he's fighting the Oblivion War on the side of the Venatori.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:00:06)
Yeah, and if in order for him to succeed on those missions that are critical to, existential threats literally to the entirety of not only human but supernatural beings, then if it means that he has to power up his abilities by as kindly as possible taking energy from other people, maybe from a utilitarian's perspective,

He's doing a lot more good than bad, you know, keeping reality from being destroyed.

Brian (1:00:37)
Right, and I think Abraham Lincoln was a great guy. Abraham Lincoln is not on record as being pro-women suffrage. It is possible for me to simultaneously believe that a lot of people who were in situations where they were unable to actually form better belief systems, but who still took the belief systems they were given forward and made them

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:00:46)
you

Brian (1:01:05)
more just, that those people are good even if I would say that they don't meet the standards that you should hold a modern person to. Thomas is a modern person but he functionally comes from a different society. So if he's taking that society and making its viewpoint less savage, well he's doing good insofar as he's improving what he was given.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:01:30)
Yeah, and that kind of goes to my view on the whole thing that yes, he's a good person if you grade him on a curve. And we had a bunch of people answer something to this extent, but my view is he's on the good end of the morality scale if you grade his performance on a curve, taking into account the world that he was raised in and the changes that he makes when he's exposed to new concepts. For example,

When he opens that salon, he's actively taking steps to do less harm with what is essentially a curse that has been put upon him as he sees it. Now, introvert crew also sort of walked down this same path saying, quote, so Thomas could not choose his parents and could not help being born what he was. We get what we get in that regard.

How we choose to act with the cards we're dealt is what determines the type of person that we are. In Thomas's case, he has continuously attempted to never kill a lover or even addict a lover. To me, that makes him a good person."

Brian (1:02:31)
think to break in here, the difference between this and the prior perspective is if you think Thomas is being as good as he thinks he can be, what you're basically saying is Thomas has a pretty low opinion of himself and he's coming from a place where he doesn't know any better. So the fact that he hasn't sort of descended into, you know, Madrigal wraith levels of not caring speaks to an inner moral character that is really quite virtuous.

In this circumstance, you don't have to grant the idea that, you know, Thomas sees himself as a monster and doesn't really think he can be any better. You can say he's fully aware of what the correct standard of morality is, but you don't apply it to him because he has a much higher uphill battle to meet it. Like, you might think that stealing is wrong.

But if someone's starving and they steal food, you might not hold them against that morally.

like Pale Factors said on the post, it takes a very specific kind of clarity to moderate feeding habits when every single physical and mental pressure is pushing you to consume more food. Thomas picked the lesser of the evil roads and went to extremes with it.

Good is a very, very relative where he's concerned.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:03:59)
That is a fantastic point. As anybody who's ever tried to diet knows, even if it's like something like your doctor tells you, you have to lose some weight or you will likely have a heart attack or get diabetes or something, when people have real motivations to lose weight, they still have an enormous time not eating when their body tells them to.

And trying to understand Thomas's point of view when he's got that strong hunger demanding that he do more and still he restrains himself is a very impressive feat when we take into account everything we know about that universe.

Now, LOLFloor has countered these discussions by saying, there is literally no ethical relationship he can be in on the entire planet with literally anyone. No one is capable of consent with him. He is incapable of not forcing people to consent with him.

He is as ethical as it's possible to be in his position, but Brian, that is a very tenuous position.

Brian (1:05:06)
Yeah, LOL4 was responding to the notion that what's wrong with Thomas is the relationships that he does form. And, you know, the point is, damning with faint praise, maybe, either he's not going to form relationships or he's going to form unethical ones. Those are the only two options.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:05:26)
And let's be clear,

not forming relationships is the same as we were talking about in the last episode. Okay, you wanna be moral? Go walk into the sun if you're a vampire from Vampire the Masquerade. If he chooses to never get with anyone that doesn't consent, well, in his world, that's as good as starving to death.

Brian (1:05:47)
Right, or at the very least, he's going to feed from people one time only, and yeah, the relationships are not going to be unethical because he won't have any, but every encounter he has will be unethical, so why is that any better? And I think that partially explains the scene that we put a pin in at the very top of this discussion. Thomas, when he's on top of Lydia feeding,

after he's been in this brutal struggle with Kravos possessing her, might really believe that he's not doing anything wrong. And I've got three main reasons for you, Adam. First, Thomas can't really understand consent. He really can't understand it the way that you or I could, because no one has ever said no to him.

not just in the sense of, you know, they were scared and he coerced them or he turned on, you know, his demon and they know Thomas passively attracts people to him. He is beautiful and people want him and the more they consider him, the more they want him

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:06:58)
Yeah, remember

in Deadbeat, he literally tries to not attract people and he can't turn his demon off enough to keep a job for more than a week before he gets in trouble because somebody tries to hook up with him in a closet. That speaks to the fact that he just doesn't have the control necessary to allow someone to consent on their own terms.

Brian (1:07:24)
the time he's decided to pay attention to them, they are already incapable of free choice. And from his perspective, that might not even be a problem. Even if he were to realize that's what's happening, that might be considered a consensual relationship in the White Court. They might not do a consensual relationship as important.

And in so far as he does understand consent to make a second point, in the moment in the scene with Lydia, he's already given the Hunger a lot of control to hold Kravos down both.

physically and spiritually. He's not only healing himself, but he's also exerted a lot of his battery back this supernaturally strong person after a whole night of fighting, however many hours before. And when Harry tries to stop him, he's in the middle of feeding. He's

already begun to slake his thirst, addiction, hunger, however you want to say it. So not only does Thomas not understand consent, even if he does, he's under the influence and unable to really make moral choices the way that a clear-headed person could.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:08:37)
Yes.

Yeah, I love that perspective because he's literally jonesing for a fix and it's right there in front of him. And it seems to me that if you're an addict in that position, as we're trying to compare him to, that you're gonna ⁓ allow a lot of moral rationalizations to go through your head. Like, ⁓ she probably wants to thank me for saving her.

you know, exactly that kind of rationalization is going to be more appealing to you than it would be if you're in a more clear-headed moment. For him, if he was already full from a recent meal, he wouldn't necessarily accept that rationalization.

Brian (1:09:24)
Right, and while I might condemn somebody who takes money in order to pay for drugs, I'm willing to say, that person's doing it because they're an addict, they have a disease, if they receive treatment for that disease, they probably ⁓ behave more morally. I'm going to condemn their behavior, but I don't necessarily think they're a bad person. I think they're troubled. That's not how I feel about somebody running a Ponzi scheme.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:09:50)
⁓ Yeah, more knowing problems there.

Brian (1:09:54)
Yeah, but to make a third point, from Thomas's perspective, he might not even be conceiving of this discussion as what's important because he might see every no-kill feeding he has as mutually beneficial. Like, even if Lydia can't consent, who cares? It might be for her own good as far as he's concerned. She...

would otherwise potentially wake up with a bunch of horrifying nightmares about what's just happened, what happened the night before, the possession. What is Thomas gonna do? Blank out a whole period in her brain with just blissful sensation and put her to bed until she wakes up the next morning, as far as we can see, like with the jogger and deadbeat, feeling winded, but absolutely great and exhilarated and totally pleasant. In fact, in Thomas's experience,

Maybe no one's ever regretted it the morning after. And we might say, well, yeah, but that's not meaningful. That doesn't determine if what you did is moral. But in real life, people use this heuristic a lot. If someone wakes up next to a one-night stand after a night out drinking and partying, and everybody's happy the next morning, we tend not to worry

If, man, the night before, was my blood alcohol content technically too high for me to say yes? If afterwards we're happy, we got what we wanted, we did what we were setting out to do, then in general, people don't tend to question, especially within the bounds of a pre-established relationship, if their behavior was okay. Even if...

legally and morally, you're supposed to.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:11:45)
Yeah, and I think it really does hammer home like A, no one's ever said no to him. And I think you're right in that B, nobody's ever woken up regretting it in the morning. And those experiences teach him a particular lesson that he's never had to interrogate his whole life. So maybe Harry telling him, this is wrong in this scene and

forcing him to get off of Lydia might be literally a wake up call to him to start like thinking about this and go, wait, maybe my experiences are unusual and I need to think about this from a different perspective. And he's only been with Justine for a year. Maybe this is the moment that he asks her, hey, you know, I had this thing with Harry and ⁓ he was like, he said, I kind of implied that this was wrong. Do you think I was wrong here?

Maybe that led to a broader discussion with her. So we get to blood rights and we see the guy who's so fed up with the way the white court runs that he's willing to take on his father even though he doesn't have a really good chance of dealing with him.

Brian (1:12:57)
And the interesting thing is, because Justine has essentially decided, as far as we can tell, and we're gonna see this in a couple of chapters in Grave Peril, that she would rather, she's affirmatively deciding she would rather be with Thomas than take psychiatric medication or engage with some other white or red-cord vampire, she is.

making an affirmative choice, she's consenting to the relationship she's having with him, the fact that he can have that conversation with her might actually kind of create the perfect opening for him to grow here. Because Justine can simultaneously say, well, yeah, Thomas, I mean, I can't really actually say I don't want you. It doesn't really matter because the way that

you you affect me, renders me incapable of really being clear-headed. And you don't have to worry about that. I know that's what's going to happen and it literally keeps me sane. like, thank you. But yeah, Dresden's right because for somebody who doesn't know what they're getting into, they have no way of making a clear-headed decision when it comes to whether they want you to feed on them.

So the fact that she is in the unique position of being able to tell him what the reality is while still saying, and by the way, that's what I want, kind of one, deepens their bond. That could be the reason why they fall in love. She's the one he now feels okay being with. But two, gives him the sort of emotional space to...

come to the realization that his past actions haven't been acceptable in a way that does give him the option to not walk into the sun.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:14:55)
Yeah, and I think that was well put. I can't disagree with any of those specific points. And it is going to be fun to track his improvement over time as we see traveling forward in the series here. But that's all we have time for today. We're gonna leave it there next time, remember, not next week, but two weeks from now on May 15th, we'll be talking about those chapters that take place in Bianca's basement

In the laundry room. And we're going to ask you guys a set of questions because we see three different ghosts in those chapters. We meet Rachel's ghost, we meet Kravos again, and Harry actually has a ghost that appears temporarily in those sets of scenes. Now, how do each of those ghosts map on to the

categories that we found in Ghost Story, right? We have like the Les Murs, we have the ghosts like Sir Stuart, and we have the ghosts that don't talk like, and then we have the Lector Specters, lots of different types. And it's really interesting to try to map what we see in the next chapter onto something that Jim fleshes out much more completely in Ghost Story.

Brian (1:16:07)
Yeah, I mean, he obviously was aware of his own writing in Grave Peril when he wrote the ghost story stuff, so presumably it should all fit together, but it's interesting to see how it does, so, you know, give us a hint.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:16:20)
Yeah, send us an email, mac at rnt.fm. Let us know how you would categorize the ghosts and how these ones fit into it.

Brian (1:16:29)
Like, is Kravos insane? He's insane, right?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:16:32)
He's gotta be insane. We'll talk about that next time.