Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:00)
So Brian, while I was in college, I worked as a clerk at a deli counter in a grocery store, slicing up lunch meats and cheeses and things like that. And there was something that that taught me that I think of to this day. Somebody would come up and the natural way that they would ask for the product is they would say, I want a mount sliced this way of this thing. And Brian?

Somebody who works as a clerk at a deli, that is the opposite of the way you need that information. The first thing I need is I want the boar's head turkey or the stop and shop white American. That's the first piece of information I need. So as a late teens, early twenties kid, my brain would just filter out the other information. So I would look like the idiot when they said, I wanna...

⁓ pound of Land O'Lakes White American, sliced a little thicker for hamburgers or whatever, and my brain ignores everything until it just hears the White American and I go back and I pick up the thing and I go, how much did you want? Like they just told me 10 seconds ago, but I've already forgotten. To this day, I still always go to the deli and I order in the correct order for the person behind the counter. I say, I want Black Forest Ham, sliced thin, half a pound.

And to this day, they have never had to ask me a second time for what I needed because I put it in the order that they will need that information and they're able to retain it. And it occurs to me, Brian, how is it that Captain Picard orders his tea?

from the replicator. T, Earl Grey, hot. The man is so freaking polite. He helps the machine.

Brian (01:47)
Adam, I think this is our return the shopping cart moment. We as a podcast need to get people making their deli orders the right way to help the true beleaguered professionals of America, the deli counter meets cutters.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:01)
And that's what we're here to do. We're here to spread the good word about helping your, about grocery store etiquette, exactly.

Brian (02:04)
Grocery store etiquette.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:07)
And if we happen to talk about the Dresden files in the meantime, well, that's just a bonus.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:21)
welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory where the spoilers go all the way through 12 months. I'm Adam Ruzzo, and joining me, as always, is an exhausted partygoer. It's Brian O'Reilly.

Brian (02:32)
my god, man. I feel like this party's been going on for weeks!

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:36)
Yeah, me too. Here we are, still, I think this is the third chapter we're talking about this party. And also, Brian, we talked about the party in A Question for Bob, like at the beginning of this book. And so we are here again, but finally the party is coming to a close. Chapter 30 is the chapter where Dresden and Michael and Susan and Thomas and Justine all try to fight their way out in the process of saving Lydia and-

the sword, Amorachius. So we're gonna go through this chapter twice, essentially. The first time we're gonna talk about the things that we normally talk about. The second time we're gonna reevaluate it as an action scene and compare it to some of the other action scenes we've seen in the Dresden files and also try to examine it and the objectives, the goals of the various characters and how those objectives change over the course of the fight. So if you recall, at the end of the previous chapter,

Mavrah is getting ready to use the gift that she just received from Bianca, that being the Sword of Love, Amorachius, and she's going to use it to kill Lydia, and Michael mentions that the sword is vulnerable, and if she is successful, this will un-make the sword, which, that's pretty high stakes, Brian, I gotta say.

Brian (03:55)
it's actually hard to tell what's really more important in the grand scheme of things insofar as our heroes know right now. Them getting out of the party alive or Amarachius making it out of the party alive. I mean, we can obviously tell what Michael thinks is most important in the moment. And arguably without knowing all about Harry's destiny, he's right. Amarachius is the most important thing as far as any of the good guys know at this entire party.

So it might seem to be a of a lawful stupid take by Michael to think, yes, what we all need to do is get four or five people killed to try to save this innocent girl. But it's really about the sword and the sword probably is, as far as they know, more important than all.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (04:42)
and that makes their choice to break hospitality and essentially draw weapons against Bianca and her guests that much more of an important decision on this cosmic scale of things. Now, one of the first things that happens is Michael and Thomas lead the fight because Harry's not yet a very good brawler.

and he's not even that good of a wizard at the moment, having lost some half of his magical power in the Kravos nightmare. and we do see Michael actually go down with a whole horde of reds jumping on top of him, but then he blasts his way back up with a Latin battle cry, and the way it's described is like, vampires just get flung everywhere.

more so than just like he got up and they fell off of him, it feels a lot more like Turn Undead or something to that effect.

Brian (05:36)
Yeah, the interesting thing here is that Michael is getting the true benefit of being a knight, which is he's having the playing field leveled for him, even though he's not holding the sword. Now, this makes perfect sense to me because whether or not you are the knight does not depend on whether you're actually holding the sword at that moment. And that's something that even Michael isn't sure of at this point.

but which is pretty clear throughout the books. It's not the physical possession of the blade that makes someone a knight of the cross. It's staying on the path. So with Michael trying to recover the sword, staying on the path, it literally doesn't matter how many vampires there are, he will have the strength to oppose them. I love that the thing that he actually says in Latin is Jesus Lord, wash away this filth.

Harry's description is that he shakes them off like a dog shaking off water. So, I mean, Jim obviously knows, but Harry is ⁓ picking up on the action that Michael is asking God for help with.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (06:44)
Yeah, the other analogy that's made here is that Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle. Just the idea of that clear piercing noise as he says, Asudomine! And you could just imagine that coming from him like it was coming from a PA system, you know? And then bodies flew back and up away from him, flesh ripped and torn. Like, that's what feels like he cast a

faith-based spell in D &D right there in that moment. All right, so at this point, they're fighting their way down the stairs, and we're gonna come back to this in more detail, but for the moment, they make it all the way up to the dais, and we get to Avra and the fight with keeping the sword away from Lydia, and at this point, we come to Susan, Justine, and Thomas holding the stairs to the dais.

while Michael and Harry go up there. And one of the things that I thought was very cool here, Brian, is we talked about how Susan's secret agent credentials are sort of spread through these early books. Like Jim obviously had an idea that he wanted her to be this badass femme fatale that she will be in the future when she gets some superpowers. And in this moment, we see Susan.

throwing holy water onto not the vampire, but the spotlight next to the vampire, which turns it into holy steam, which washes over multiple vampires and blocks them from getting to her. So rather than just a single like, here we go. And then all the, goes the holy water, it's gone. You saved yourself like one second. The steam is now hanging in the air for long enough for her to pull out the pistol that she has in there and start shooting at them. But.

I like that Jim tempers her, she's quick thinking and she's clever and she's doing this smart thing with the fact that she's still human and in this moment, someone untrained and unexperienced is going to be panicking. when Harry describes her shots, it was

the rapid thump, thump, thump of panic fire, which humanizes her a little bit. She's not just this unstoppable killing machine that's fearless in the moment. She's afraid like she should be, like anyone would be. If she was actually aware of what was going to be here, she never would have come.

Brian (09:09)
And what I love here is that Harry's reaction to her panic fire isn't any sense of condescension towards her, it's I remember thinking that she just killed the thing.

really and truly taken one of them out. A fierce pride shot through me and I headed down the stairs. And I love that because Harry knows what it's like to be in your first battle and he's looking at her, seeing her panicking, afraid, but still standing there and going, my God, I love this woman. And it's really important for Jim to sprinkle in moments like that in this book.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (09:47)
Yeah, cause he's gotta set up the fact that he's going into a deep depression in the next book as a result of everything that happens here. And he has to really sell the I love you that's coming a couple chapters hence as being the thing that breaks through Leah's spell. We'll get there. For now though, what's happening here is they've managed to recover Lydia. They're on their way back down the stairs, but before they can get anywhere close to the door, Bianca grabs Justine and it looks like...

there's a pause in the fighting, right? She's threatening Justine and saying to Thomas, like, you better come over to my side. And Thomas appears to betray Harry in this moment. We're gonna come back and ask the question of whether he actually did, but let's go through the rest of this chapter to the end and then we're gonna pop back to the beginning and talk about the actual action aspect of it.

We now have Harry blasting fire into the sky, like all around him. The topiary specifically is all on fire and it's spreading from there. And he notes that there are the forms of many of the mortals that had been fed upon during the actual party itself. Some of them weren't breathing, but some of them were. And he starts to feel responsible for what happened. He now...

thinks that he's going to be burning them alive. He's going to deal with this in the next chapter as well, but Brian, let's assume for the moment that he is responsible for killing some mortals here that weren't yet dead when his spire consumes this place. Does that count as black magic in the eyes of, say, the White Council? And then separate question, will this corrupt him?

Brian (11:31)
So I think that black magic corruption comes in essentially two forms. One is very obvious when we see things like the black veins appearing on Ebenezer when he's using the black staff or the way the warlocks will slowly start to sort of look insane as they're more and more corrupted by black magic.

But there's another kind of corruption which is a little bit more insidious and it is the gradual way you give yourself permission to do things that are wrong. The way that you twist yourself and are twisted by the actions you take into sort of perverting your own ethical sense. I had a high school English teacher once when he was describing Othello

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (12:03)
Hmm.

Brian (12:15)
that said that, you know, animals feel emotions and there's nothing wrong with that. And humans use reason and there's nothing wrong with that either. But to become a monster, you have to rationalize. You have to use reasons to justify acting on your emotions, as Othello does in the play. And I think that is the true insidious corruption of black magic. It counts as a rationalization that sticks with you.

In terms of breaking the laws of magic? Absolutely. If Harry kills people with magic, he's broken the law of magic. But is this a rationalization a choice that Harry is making selfishly that he wouldn't make again in the future that's perverting who he is? I think we can come back to whether the choice is selfish in the moment, but he certainly would make it again. He would...

sacrifice some people to destroy a supernatural threat that was substantially large. And we know this because of Battleground. He lays out his banner, people follow him and they die by the hundred. And in that very book, he uses magic and this is why he's kicked out of the White Council ultimately, to kill things that the council thinks are human. So.

That in and of itself doesn't seem to be corrupting Harry, but the council obviously considers it black magic. They do so in Battleground.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (13:42)
Yeah, the council's position is always, it's better to be safe than sorry, and those human servitors did look like humans, and I don't care what mind control has been done to them or what kind of gills they've been given, that still counts as mortal, and you can then, therefore, still be corrupted by it. I think there's arguments being made on both sides, and we'll certainly have fun making those when we get to Battleground.

So the question about this situation though, we've had the argument, and I've had the argument a couple of times outside of the podcast on like intent seems to matter a lot, but we know it's not the only thing that matters because Molly never intended to hurt her friends, but they still

got hurt by the magic and Harry, in addition to the White Council, is adamant that that is enough to slowly push her down the path of using this power in more insidious and evil ways, essentially. But Harry also seems to provide her with, you know, when he argues with the White Council, in the same way that he argued self-defense for his own transgressions before the book started, he's saying,

She did this, yes, but she did it without the intent to actually harm. She did it with ignorance, and so she's not irredeemable yet. And I think that might be part of what's going on here because Harry's not intending to kill these kids. When he let this loose, he wasn't thinking clearly, he wasn't thinking through everything. He's gonna feel the guilt afterwards for making that choice, but casting this spell probably didn't...

have as bad an effect it could if he had, like you said, rationalized and said, I know there's kids down there, but I'm just so angry right now, I need to kill these vampires. He definitely didn't do that. We're in his head on the page, right? He cast this spell without thinking by giving in to his emotions. And to me, I think that's very different from like you're talking about, rationalizing it and then making the choice to sacrifice the kids.

Brian (15:46)
Yeah, Harry's not saying these people are less important than me, therefore I get to make this choice. Harry's saying everything here needs to burn. He's not accepting himself from that and he is not making the choice because he thinks that lives are in any way okay for him to take. He's not really thinking in those terms at all. One thing I want to mention though is coming to what you said about Molly, Molly's intentions...

aren't pure. And that's why people notice that it's black magic in the first place. If she just, without any of the latent anger at her friends for, you know, going behind her back and sleeping with each other, had made them stop using drugs, maybe nobody would even notice. But because she is angry at them, especially her boyfriend who gets it the worst, it's black magic.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (16:36)
Yeah, that's a good

point.

Brian (16:39)
However, even with that, it doesn't seem to grub her all that much. She gave herself permission to do something that she shouldn't, and she'll continue to do that to lesser extents. In the next couple books, she gives herself permission to break the rules, and she gets caught doing it, and she is made to understand why that's not okay. But she recovers from it. So it seems that a large portion of why Black Magic is bad

is that once you give yourself permission to do these things, if you're not very quickly restrained, then you're going to go down a dark path.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (17:13)
Yeah, and I love that framing that you use there, where it's like you're giving yourself permission to go further and further each time, and it makes it easier and easier. Harry has certainly framed it that way before, like if give in to that temptation once, it makes it easier to give in to the temptation again. You get the same argument from Batman when he says why he doesn't kill, because after he kills the first time, it will give him permission to go further the next time.

But you, I love the framing and I think it's in White Night when Harry is explaining to Molly why she can't just do these things, where he says something along the lines of, it's when you say something to yourself like, I knew it was a bad idea, but, I knew I shouldn't, but, that but is how you know you're going down that path of rationalization. You're saying, I know this is wrong.

and here's the reason I should be able to do it anyway. So we're definitely gonna see Harry grow and learn from his experiences, because he's gonna be teaching that to Molly in the future.

Brian (18:16)
Yeah, and I think that's important to note. Harry doesn't have that moment here.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (18:21)
No.

Brian (18:21)
The thing that I will say about this fire though, Adam, is whether Harry is casting it consciously or not, whether he's giving himself permission to make a spell this big and violent consciously or not, subconsciously, he is definitely making this spell wreak havoc. Because Harry uses language.

that almost makes it seem like the fire is alive, like it's hunting the vampires down. I think he's making it behave that way. Are there any other explanations?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (18:59)
I

don't think so. mean, just listen to this here. Flames flew out, caught one of the more cowardly vampires. The fire touched him and then twined around him, searing and blackening his skin, then dragging him back, winding and rolling him towards the blaze, unquote. Fire doesn't do that, Brian. I don't know if you know, it's kind of incorporeal. It doesn't normally have the ability to move someone. So it has to be that Harry is using some

know, kinetic spell and weaving it into the fire. There's another line, quote, tendrils of fire rose up from the ground and began to slither over the courtyard like serpents, unquote.

So it does seem like he's directing it here, because the only other alternative is he's somehow called up a fire elemental and we see no other evidence of that.

Brian (19:48)
Right, like that story about Murphy and Cain in the volcano that we've never gotten that he called it whatever that thing was. But no, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that Harry's obviously not doing this consciously. He's staring at these things happening and being like, that's weird. And this seems way, way beyond any kind of magic that Harry is capable of at this moment. In fact,

I don't think Harry's capable of something like this until after he gets Soulfire. That's what allows him to make his magic into sort of physical constructs that interacts with the... Right. So does that mean that he's somehow, through like the same mechanism as a death curse, accessing that kind of energy of creation to force the fire to behave in these unnatural ways?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (20:24)
Ooh, that's a really good point. Yeah.

That actually is an interesting way to put it because we do see that Soulfire allows his magic to be more physically present in a way that it just wasn't before, to be more real in a sense, So yeah, I could definitely see that as an explanation as well. I don't know if Jim had thought that far ahead.

This could just be him thinking that there's some kinetic, know, Harry's directing the fire and using kinetic magic to make it do these things. But I love that

Brian (21:11)
And I think that it's plausible because after this scene, Harry's heart stops. He dies. We know that Harry doesn't have access to soul fire in the moment. He has not met Uriel yet. He has not picked up the coin. None of that has happened. But maybe that's what makes a death curse so powerful that you use your life energy, your soul to, you know, allow it to be more durable, to survive more dawns and

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:18)
Yeah.

Brian (21:40)
in that same way without realizing it, without even really trying to throw a death curse, Harry is using his soul to make the fire behave differently. Jim might not have realized that that it was a thing that he was going to sort of specially carve out as soul fire at the end, but it definitely seems to be something he's toying with. Otherwise, why does Harry's heart stop?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (22:04)
Yeah, that's the only explanation here is that he is either purposefully or not purposefully throwing a death curse here. And it's only through Michael's intervention that it seems to bring him back. And we're gonna talk about that in a second. So let's just go through everything that's happening here. So we keep that all in mind while we talk about the bigger picture of what's happening in the room, right? So after Bianca seizes Justine, the fighting stops, Thomas...

appears to betray him, throws Susan to the wolves, and then Thomas himself is betrayed by Bianca, and then Harry goes crazy with the fire, and then his heart stops. Michael manages to bring him back, and then they all manage to just barely escape thanks to Leah's tunnel of fresh air that we talked about a little bit in the last chapter about maybe that was Thomas that made a deal with her to do that, something that she wanted to do but couldn't.

because she didn't have the actual authority until Thomas offered it. But now that they're rushing to Michael's truck to safety, but it's only Michael and Harry and Lydia. Those are the only three that make it out of their group. Now, Brian, I wanna look back at what we just talked about, that whole fight that starts with them near the door and goes to the dais and then goes back outside. We wanna look at this as like a three act fight.

and the objectives of the different groups over the course of the fight.

When Harry and Michael and Justine and Thomas and Susan all make it to the stairs up to the dais, I put that at the end of the first act of the fight. Now Harry and Michael are going up the stairs to confront Mavrah and Justine and Thomas and Susan are holding the stairs. The whole Mavrah confrontation and trying to get Lydia away from her is like the second act of the fight and it ends when Bianca grabs Justine and forces an end to the fighting temporarily.

The third act of the fight is when Thomas betrays them and then is betrayed and Harry goes crazy, dies apparently, and then they rush outside. So that's how I see that fight breaking out. Is that how you kind of visualize it into a three act structure?

Brian (24:11)
Yes, and I think it's important to realize that we're picking those points not because they are in and of themselves conclusive, but because it's a three-act structure due to the characters' beats. They're sort of emotional objectives changing at each of those points. So we're not trying to divide it into equal amounts of time or anything like that. We're just trying to note the places where there's a new beat for each group.

And that makes this action scene, the complexity of all the different actors and their different motivations and the fact that they change multiple times during the fights, I think by far the best one in any of the first three books. I mean, this might honestly be one of the reasons why Grave Parallel is considered such a step forward. This scene is incredibly complicated and incredibly satisfying.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (25:07)
Yeah, I think it's only rivaled in these early books by the Luguru scene in the precinct, which we raved about when we were talking about Full Moon. That's definitely one of the better action scenes in the first three, four, five books, and I think you're right. I think this one is right up there with it. Now, in order to help us set the scene, how many Red Court vampires do you envision in this courtyard at the start of the fight, like in your mind's eye?

Brian (25:34)
Now that's a really good point because I think I inflate the number probably too much when I'm picturing it. You know, I see a full ballroom of people and they're almost all Red Court vampires, but it can't really be that. There can't be that many of them in Chicago. So more likely there's two dozen, maximum three.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (25:55)
Yeah, that's something about what I was thinking of. I was imagining that there were like two human food for every vampire, more or less, that, because they were treating this as like a party with their friends and they were getting drunk and whatever. And so in order to do that, they would need to feel comfortable. And if like the majority of the people there are these inhumanly beautiful, weird looking people, that's gonna be a little bit weird. But if it's like the majority, like two thirds,

are humans that are gonna be food for the other third, that allows them to like, you know, completely gorge themselves and fully satisfy their blood lust and then not have to share. Like that makes sense to me. If you're throwing this big party for vampires, you don't wanna force them to share very much. So that's how I've always envisioned it. So 20 to 30-ish red court, maybe more guards and stuff waiting in the wings. And of course you've got the red court.

the Red Court production company running the lights that could probably jump in if you need them. And then maybe 30, 40 of the kids that they were talking about, that some of them aren't necessarily here when the fight breaks out, because they talk about how I think earlier in the chapter Harry mentions they're being led off into separate rooms. And so I imagine only about 20 kids remain by the time the fight starts. So 20 kids, 30 vampires, that's what's been in my mind.

Brian (27:19)
I think that makes sense. And we should sort of lay down the amount of teams we're seeing because Bianca is definitely commanding those vampires. They are acting under her will, that is her team. I don't think I would put Mavrah on her team. I think we should evaluate Mavrah's actions separately, even though they basically seem to be in line with what Bianca wants. And I think we have to realize that Team Dresden,

also potentially has at least two and maybe even three different sets of objectives, because what Dresden wants and what Thomas wants are not necessarily the same. And you can even argue that what Michael wants and what Dresden wants aren't as exactly the same.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (27:58)
Yeah, I think it's mostly the same, but they argued before this, right? Michael says, I'm gonna do the right thing, and I think you will too. And I think Michael's proven correct in the end. So I think throughout most of the fight, and Michael are basically on the same page. So I would say it's those four teams that you're talking about. Bianca and the Reds, Thomas as his own entity, Justine's think following his lead, so I think she's part of that.

and then have and then Harry and Michael.

So at this point, I want to start by asking like, let's look at from Harry's perspective. That's the main one we get, right? At the start of the fight, he and Michael basically agree we're not gonna let them kill Lydia if we can avoid it. That's what starts the whole fight. So throughout the entire first act, we assume

That's the case, right? They're making their way to the dais specifically to try to save Lydia. And Brian, when they get there, Harry is surprised to find that Lydia is still alive.

Brian (28:58)
Which is funny because Harry really does see this as a bit of a charge of the light brigade moment. He thinks that he has to do the right thing, but he doesn't actually expect to prevent Mavrah from destroying the sword. So I think it's fair to ask, why doesn't Mavrah just destroy the sword?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (29:15)
Yeah, the answer on the page is, the carnage had evidently drawn Mavra's attention and she stared at the blood, withered lips pulled back from yellow teeth, unquote. Now, that kind of implies that she's been like hypnotized by, ooh, look at all the blood. But from what we know of Mavra's competence and capabilities and her age, it seems like if she wanted to kill Lydia, she's had ample time to do it.

Brian (29:41)
Yes, so I don't think she really wants to kill Lydia. I mean, would Mavrah like to destroy Amarachius? Absolutely, that would be a nice bonus for her. But she's not a Denarion, the swords aren't really her problem.

So, Mavrah is in this party attempting to show Bianca that she's on her team. Whether she is or not actually in the grand scheme of things, we don't know.

But if we're correct about who Cal is, then the goal of the people here is eventually to start a war with the White Council. And in order for Mavra to do that, she needs Harry and Michael to make things a little messy. She can't just destroy the sword so they stop fighting before they kill anyone.

She needs to make sure they kill a few red-cord vampires, and then they need to make sure that they kill them. They need to make this nice and messy to start things down that road to war. So Mavra's waiting until they get close, first of all, to see if anybody's gonna kill them first, to let them inflict some carnage, and maybe to give them more time to create greater provocations.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (30:56)
Yeah, and one thing that occurred to me is this could just be Mavrah as like the mustache twirling villain of like, ⁓ I will wait to destroy the sword until I can see the look on the knight's face when I do it, right? Because she does appear to spin to Lydia and attempt to drop the sword down on her. It's only Harry's intervention with the sword cane from a distance that stops it, which,

You could argue like maybe she wasn't expecting that electromagnetic, know, venti-fero spell to stop her. She might have been planning, okay, as soon as they get here, they'll be over there, I'll be over here, I'm just gonna go chop chop. And Harry basically does something unexpected.

Brian (31:42)
and maybe she's just waiting because she's still making the decision. I feel like Kravos is attempting to come back to life through Lydia. I think Mavrah probably promised him he could do that. And she's sort of deciding in the moment, am I gonna stab him in the back or not?

Not because Mavra is wrestling with the moral dimensions of that, but because she's wondering which thing is more useful. And it's only when Dresden and Michael actually break through the reds and get to her that she's like, shit, I actually have to make a decision right away.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:14)
The last possibility for me is these swords have a way of like not being destroyed. Like every time the villains almost get them throughout all of history, they still somehow manage to stick around. Hmm, there's some coincidence that does it.

Brian (32:22)
Mmm.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:30)
she might be hesitating because like, am I really gonna be able to do this? Like, nothing's gonna stop me. Wait, if I try to do this, something, is a beam gonna fall on my head? Like, just being a little bit worried that if I am the one to physically try to destroy the sword, something will intervene and it might not be healthy for me when that happens.

Brian (32:52)
Yeah, she very much might be feeling like, wait a second, I know I haven't burst into flames yet, but what's gonna happen when this thing actually blows up?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (33:00)
Yeah,

she might be having second thoughts. Maybe I should have had a lackey actually do the chopping.

Brian (33:06)
Yeah,

so that's part of what Mavra is attempting to do here, one way or another, provoke this war. Do you agree with me that that's the goal of Team Bianca in the beginning of this fight? They're not just trying to kill Harry and Thomas, they're trying to kill them in a way that starts the Red Court marching down the road to war.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (33:32)
I think that's a valid reading of it because of the information we get later in the series that suggests, yeah, there was a faction that wanted to start the war and it was going to start at some point in the future regardless. So Harry, don't feel too bad about starting it. This was coming, right? But I think based on what we know of Bianca, I think regardless of whether...

that is something that she's been pressured to do by some faction or whether she even agrees with some faction regarding that, I think her one only goal here is to get revenge on Harry. Remember, she has been literally haunted by Rachel slash Paula since that day in Stormfront when Bianca killed her. So she's been tortured by the ghost of the person that

She theoretically loved or admired something that she felt a connection, a bond with that person. That's why she's so mad at Harry for quote unquote, forcing Bianca to kill Rachel. So I think that is driving her more than any other consideration during this. And one reason that I think is not the war being here is because, okay, let's imagine that Bianca's plan works.

Harry breaks the rule draws weapons, breaks hospitality in front of tons of witnesses, including quote unquote neutral witnesses like Farrow Vax and Leon Mananchy. And at that point, you have to, and probably Duke Ortega actually, because he shows up a couple nights later, he was probably already here watching to witness this. And I think if things go according to plan,

Harry breaks the rules, draws weapons, and then he is killed. And that's it. At that point, don't think that there's any war that starts from that. Harry was the one that did the bad thing. He was killed from it. Neither side necessarily has a reason to continue provocations into a war at that point. I don't think the pretext is there.

Brian (35:39)
Yeah, I agree, which is what I think explains all of the mustache twirling that goes on in these scenes. Sure, maybe Bianca just won't be satisfied if she sticks a cold knife between Harry's ribs one night as he's walking home from Max Pub or whatever, and she needs to do something that's big and elaborate to get revenge on him. But if she just wanted to kill him.

I mean, just have a sniper, you know? Like the second he draws his staff and rod, just have a sniper shoot him.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (36:08)
Yeah, I mean, actually, Kyle does try to do that. We skipped over that part, but right at the beginning of the fight, Kyle pulls out a pistol as if on cue and would have killed Dresden at that moment, except Dresden pulls the weapon out of his hand with his sword cane.

Or we're looking at all this

way too closely and the doilest answer is, Jim wanted them to have a fight with Mavra so Lydia just had to survive long enough. I think that's the real answer there, but as we've said in the past, we like to try to look for Watsonian explanations when we can. It's a lot more interesting.

Brian (36:39)
in the beginning of the fight, Adam, do you think Thomas's goal is any different from Harry and Michael's? I mean, he goes along with exactly what they're doing.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (36:48)
I think it's definitely different because we see later he appears perfectly willing to sacrifice Susan to get himself out of trouble. because of what we know from later books, I think at the beginning of this fight, he cares about getting himself out. He cares about getting Justine out and he cares about getting Harry out. He is more selfish in these early books and I think he only cares about

those three people. doesn't, he wouldn't mind getting out with Michael. Michael's a good hand on a knife, but I don't think if it's choice between saving Michael and saving Harry, he's gonna take Harry and run, or he's gonna take Justine and run. So I don't think he cares about Susan or Michael, obviously those, or Lydia for that matter, and those are a deal breaker for Harry, for sure.

Brian (37:40)
I can buy that.

I think that Thomas does care about more people in the sense that he does not want Susan to die. And even when he hands her over, as we'll talk about, he might be thinking that he can get everybody out alive, but he definitely doesn't care about Amarokius. He just knows that if I don't run in that direction, Harry's definitely gonna die.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (38:02)
Yeah, and I didn't mean to imply that he was completely indifferent to it, but that given the choice, he would save himself and Harry and Justine and let the others, you know, if he was in a position to have to choose, basically, that would be the case. So he cares more about them than he does about Michael and Susan. And I agree with you, if he can get Harry's friends out without...

huge risk, he absolutely would, because I think he's good enough of a person here, and he wants Harry to like him of the information we find out later about them being brothers. Okay, so that's, we kind of looked at the goals of everybody from the beginning of the fight. Harry and Michael want to get to the dais, want to save Lydia. Thomas wants to follow Harry's lead to get his brother out of trouble, and of course he has to stay with the help, because those are the only people that will help him get out.

and we've got Bianca probably trying to kill Harry, maybe trying to do it in such a way to start a war, and we've got Mavrah who is probably trying to unmake the blade. Now, when they get to the dais and now there's the fight, I don't think Mavrah's actual motivations change at all at this point. She's still trying to take out Lydia, Harry's fighting her with the sword. Does Thomas' motivation change? Does Bianca's motivation change at this point?

Brian (39:21)
So I think that at this point, Bianca's motivation has changed because now she's trying to bring this to an end more quickly because it looks like they might actually get away. And in my opinion, Bianca, because I'm thinking that this is all sort of part of the plan, is okay with them killing some of her mooks. She's going to sacrifice a few of her lesser subjects in order to make this into a bigger incident.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:33)
Yeah, that's my thought.

Brian (39:48)
But as soon as they turn around after getting Lydia back and start making their way out of the party, that's when Bianca says, okay, I need to actually end this or they will get away, ruining both of my objectives.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (40:02)
Right.

So that's the moment where she decides to come out of the shadows and grab Justine from behind. Now, one thing I'm sorry we forgot to cover is that earlier in this, right when the things kick off, Thomas says, Bianca, our only chance is to take out their leader, unquote. So I think that kind of implies that Thomas's objective at that point is,

Our only way to survive this is to take out Bianca. That causes mass chaos in the rest of the Reds, and then we might have a chance to slip out, right? Plus she's very strong, she's got sorcery. If we don't take her out, there's no way we leave. So, now, Bianca's grabbed Justine, the fighting has stopped. Harry's trying to bluff his way past them, saying, yeah, we've done this much. You don't want to get in our way. You should just let us leave.

Bianca's like, uh-uh, I'm not falling for that. And Thomas, he takes this opportunity to appear to change his objective completely.

Brian (40:59)
Yeah, so Thomas kicks Susan to the Reds, making a deal with Bianca as she offers him to turn the three of them over to Bianca, theoretically in exchange for Justine. Now, I don't think, as Thomas explains later, that that's what he's trying to do. But one thing we should note here, when Thomas shouts, we need to kill the leader,

That not only sets what his objective is, it also sort of frames the point of him doing this. If Thomas just wanted to survive, or if he just wanted Harry to survive, maybe he shouts, we need to run now. But he doesn't. He accepts that we're going to try to get the sword, and the only way he thinks they can actually win the fight is to take out Bianca.

Thomas is thinking ahead of both Michael and Harry because he's trying to win. And that's why one of the things that frustrates me about this chapter and the next chapter is that I think from that point of view, what Thomas does here is absolutely sensible. If he's still trying to win, the only way he can do that

is to seem to go along with what Bianca wants.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:13)
Yeah, and let's remember the way that white court vampires actually effective is with subterfuge, deception, bluffing. All of those things are their specialties. And

he's hoping that his bluff is going to work and that he's going to get an opportunity to stab her in the back and actually go through with his original plan, kill the leader, right? So do you buy that?

when he comes back later and says, was a bluff, I was gonna try to do something after she turned her back on me, you believe him when he says that.

Brian (42:48)
I believe him because I don't think that any other set of actions makes it more likely, for example, that Susan survives. Like, if Thomas doesn't kick Susan into the Red Court horde, are they not going to kill her? But if he does, well, they won't kill her immediately. He's literally buying not just himself, but everyone time.

And he's hoping he fades into the crowd almost immediately. He walks away from the situation. He, presumably, gets behind Bianca. He's literally trying to execute that assassination and then restart the fight with them down one commander.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (43:22)
yeah, that's always been.

Yeah, that's always been my interpretation. Even the first time I read through it, I believed him. And I think it's just the way that Jim is able to make you sympathetic towards him during this. Like it didn't have to be that way with the context of knowing that he's Harry's brother and he knows that at this time, it's pretty clear I think in hindsight that he was definitely ⁓ true when he said that he was

bluffing and trying to get behind Bianca because remember his main goal is in part to save Justine. He really wants to protect her and when Bianca's threatening her, this seems like the only play that will work for him to not only save Justine but also Harry. If he accepts truly, then he only gets to theoretically save Justine. If he refuses and sticks with Harry, then he loses Justine.

So the only real play is to pretend to accept and then help Harry.

Brian (44:33)
And remember, he's the only person in the group who has a prayer of pulling this off because he's supernaturally fast. Even Michael is not going to be able to make something like this work. So I don't think it even matters that it's Justine who gets got. Anybody who got caught and made Harry stop is going to cause Thomas to effectively behave the same way. The fact that it's Justine maybe lets him form the plan a little more quickly because he's already leaning in that direction.

But I think ultimately he'd come to the same decision because he's a white-court vampire. The funny thing is, I don't think he realizes how badly his father wants him dead at this point, which is why Bianca instantly betrays him. Bianca's not thinking, Thomas is a huge threat, I need to get rid of him, he's about to stab me in the back. She's thinking, ⁓ and I promised this idiot's father I would kill him.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (45:18)
Yeah.

Okay, so moving on, we know that after Harry uses the Venteferro spell on the cane to pull the gun away from

and he uses it twice more, once to shock Mavrah and another time to like use it to physically move the sword around so that she falls off the dais with the sword. He basically then announces to the reader he's tapped out of gas. He was running on fumes at that point. He'd done so much magic in the last several days, lost so much, he was almost out. But then Brian, he puts out more magic we've seen in probably an entire book.

the way that it's described here. There's so much fire. And what's more, he describes it as being like incredibly angry and filled with rage. Literally quote, it set me on fire. But we just talked about in our last episode that he couldn't summon his righteous anger in that previous chapter because it was something that the nightmare took from him. So where is this anger coming from?

Brian (46:36)
So think that Harry's throwing a death curse here. That's where the magic comes from. That's where the power comes from. But what we need to ask is what emotion drives him to do that almost unconsciously. I don't think it's righteous rage. I think it's the other kind of rage. The really dark rage.

The rage he feels when Leia has to potentially stay his hand in Stormfront. I think this is the rage that smites things, that brings things low because you hate them. And he, the moment they take Susan from him, hates them. He hates everyone in the building and he wants them to go away.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:26)
This is Roth.

Brian (47:27)
Yes, and it's not righteous. This is not the wrath of God. This is personally, I am vengeful against you. I am going to do the bad thing to break the rules because fuck you, that's why.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:44)
I think that's entirely possible, but my interpretation of it has been slightly different because of what comes right before we get to the line, it set me on fire. What set him on fire? And it's this line here. Michael and I couldn't possibly fight them all alone. They'd taken Susan. The help we thought we'd found had turned against us. They had Susan. And it was my fault.

I hadn't listened to her when I should have. I hadn't protected her. And now she was going to die because of me. I don't know how that realization would have made someone else feel. I don't know if the despair, the self-loathing, and the helpless fury would crumble them like too brittle concrete or melt them like dirty lead or shatter them like cheap glass. I only know it did to me. It set me on fire." Unquote. So I think what we have here, Brian,

is a rage of self-loathing. He's so angry that his choices have led to this outcome that is, it's unrecoverable, it's irredeemable. At this point, he's lost all hope. They have Susan, I'm out of juice, Thomas has betrayed us, there's still a horde between us and the door, we're not getting out of this alive, and it's my fault.

I'm the one to blame. So I think that summons up not righteous anger, and I don't think it even summons, I think it might even be actually some of what you said and some of what Mai said. But I think it's a combination of vengeful fury and self-loathing that he's able to use to summon the anger that normally powers his spells. And I think it's that self-loathing part, the part that he feels so much guilt that sometimes he seems like he has a death wish.

That is what triggers the death curse or the attempted death curse as it were.

Brian (49:37)
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. gives him access to the death curse? The fact that he wants to die. But what makes the magic this destructive? The fact that he wants to kill. Harry, in this moment, let's be clear, might not be doing something that will forever taint him, but this is black magic.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:49)
Yeah, that's perfect way of encapsulating it.

Brian (50:00)
He is definitely accessing negative emotions and using the magic of creation to wantonly destroy, including himself, everything around him. Harry's not saving Susan if this fire spell completely goes off the rails. He's killing everyone. So the fact that he's lost to that righteous fury is probably the reason why

And Adam, you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, that this is the biggest fire spell Harry ever casts because it's the one with the least control, which is supplied by the righteousness of his anger.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (50:39)
Yeah, it's probably not matched until the fight with the Jotunn in where he describes like putting together the most concentrated, the most perfectly focused fire spell he's ever done. And of course it doesn't do anything to the son of Mesfalaim. But I think that's probably the time where he.

finally gets the control to put out the kind of damage in a very small area that matches what he does here. But all the way until Battleground, you're absolutely right. This is the biggest fire spell that he's ever done. And then, quote, I felt my heart clutch in my chest and stop beating. I swayed on my feet, gasping, unquote. So he is dying here, which again, lends evidence to the idea that this is a

death curse that he has killed himself by releasing all the magic that's in him, maybe powering it with his very soul. So how does he come back from this, Brian? Michael helps him, but what's your explanation? How is it? What method does Michael actually bring him back?

Brian (51:49)
So there's one of two options and I'm gonna call number one the cheat method. And I don't think this is what's going on even if it's a little bit of what's going on. What do I mean? So one potential thing is he kills himself but Michael gives him CPR and that saves him. I guess technically, theoretically in the world of the story that might be possible and Harry's just kind of the first wizard to figure it out in any weaponizable way because he doesn't

cheat death the same way he doesn't changes here this doesn't draw attention in the same way we don't think anyway but he does have his heart stopped for a second and then comes back so he maybe he just kind of found the loophole and the loophole is have somebody who's really good at cpr do cpr option two is that it's not the cpr

It's that Michael is using a bonus action to activate Lay on Hands. And this is God saying, hey, Harry, not a big fan of how wanton the last spell was, but good job. And sending him back for another round because CPR in real life can't bring someone back like this.

That's why they have those defibrillators in every building, because CPR doesn't do it. Maybe Jim just is following Hollywood logic where that's what CPR can do, but in real life it wouldn't work. And the only way he's getting up and running after this is through a literal act of God.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (53:16)
this, Michael is literally praying to God, saying, Lord, I know that Harry hasn't always done what you would have done, but he's a good man. He's fought against your foes. He deserves better than to die here, Lord. So if you would be kind enough to show me how to get us out of here, I'd really appreciate it, unquote. And that's when Leah's spell, the smoke parts, at least we assume it's Leah's spell, right? We know that it is later.

but I'm assuming this is a continuation of it. It could be the Lord is also doing something here, but it's probably more likely Leah's spell that gives him the column of clear air even this early. And then Harry gets put on the ground, Michael does his lay on hands thing that you were describing and or CPR. And he says, quote, he laid his hand over my heart and let out a short cry, unquote. And to me, that might involve a Latin cry.

of some kind of healing or protection, and that might have been enough to just keep him together and to get his heart started again as part of the CPR that happens, because he doesn't remember much more than a series of dull, hard thumps on his chest after that. So yeah, I think it could be either, but I tend to lean like my head cannon is Michael saved his life with some kind of mysticism here.

whether it's like literal Paladin lay on hands, or it was the prayer and the white god decided to answer that prayer like a divine intervention level. Hey, you know, we're probably gonna need this starborn. I know he's not shaping up to be perfect, but you know, maybe.

Brian (54:47)
And the white god can't just do whatever to make things turn out the way that he wants, but he can answer prayers. And this is totally the kind of thing that, you know, if you believe in miracles, that Jim would find consistent and within the sphere of the white god's actions.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (55:07)
Right,

Brian (55:08)
But there's another option that we haven't really considered, which is just, it is the same person who makes the tunnel in the smoke. It's just that that person is Leah, because as Harry's godmother, she can provide a little defibrillation while Michael does the CPR.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (55:22)
That's

entirely possible too, yeah. Because right after happens, is the one that did that tunnel. Okay, so I think that brings us to the end of the chapter for a second time, Brian. We gotta move on to chapter 31, which takes place an entire day later, right? We went from night three all the way to night four, because Harry wakes up in his apartment.

the pain of his burns, and Michael has to tell him, yeah, it's been an in- you slept through the entire day and into the next night.

Brian (55:53)
Yeah, and Michael says the authorities found 11 bodies. He essentially delivers that news in a way that Harry thinks that he has killed people. We'll later find that not all of the bodies were people because of what we learned from Butters, but potentially some of them were, and Michael seems to think so at the time. They got Lydia out, and Harry insists that, you know, even though they accomplished these objectives because these

other people may have died it's gonna come back to bite Adam you suggested that maybe that is literal and correct

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (56:33)
Yeah, because what happens later in Harry's career, he gets burned really bad during blood rites when he's fighting Mavra's scourge and they come out with a flamethrower. So, it's entirely possible that he is getting some karmic payback at that moment, and he's predicting that karmic payback right here in chapter 31.

Brian (56:53)
And that would have killed him if he hadn't picked up the coin because Harry doesn't let them take the hand. It would have gone septic and he would have died. I mean, maybe not. He's a wizard. They have, you know, special powers, but it seems like that would have been a really, really big problem. And it still was. It's only that the presence of Lashiel keeps it from being even more catastrophic.

As we learn all this information, laments failing to tell Susan, I love you, as Michael maybe would have predicted. Harry says, before there's a knock at the door, that something feels off about this to Now, Adam, aside from the obvious, you know, they just saw a whole bunch of people die at a party full of vampires, Harry's heart stopped, the building burned to the ground.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (57:27)
Hmm.

Brian (57:43)
What do think he's referring to?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (57:44)
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. It stuck out to me when I was reading through it for this time because I think every other time I've read it, It immediately gets undercut by Thomas pounding on the door and like, he's back and he's brought Amarokus and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's giving you all this news. But for just a moment there, Harry is about to have an epiphany and you don't know what it is. And it's either one of two things. At the end of this chapter, it is revealed that

Lydia is sleeping and uh-oh, that's a bad idea. ⁓ she's possessed by Kravos already. So that could be what his instincts are trying to tell him at this moment. Or it could be his instincts are telling him like, hey, remember, this still doesn't add up. That nightmare can't be a demon's ghost or something like that. It's gotta be that it's actually Kravos. So this is the two sort of revelations that he hasn't yet had, that he will have in the next two chapters.

To me, I think it's like his subconscious, like the man in black in his brain going, hey, hey, she's sleeping right over there, wake her the heck up.

Brian (58:46)
Yeah, or tie her down maybe more aptly. But Harry doesn't have the time to complete the thought because,

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (58:49)
Mmm.

Brian (58:55)
A slender figure of medium height stumbled into the room. He wore a leather jacket, jeans, tennis shoes, and a cub's ball cap. Now it's Thomas, but was that a head fake to Kyle Hamilton?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (59:07)
think it was because if you go back and read through all the references to Kyle Hamilton in the earlier chapters, Harry's always mentioning his tennis whites or his tennis shoes. And to me, is trying to get you to be like, ⁓ God, the guy stumbling in the door, it's Kyle, Kyle's gonna attack them. And then that is even amplified when Harry says, you, and I grabbed the man, like that accusatory, you.

That also would fit if Kyle was the one pounding and coming in through the door. it takes like an entire paragraph and a half before we get Thomas's name brought up. And it says, Thomas released the rifle case. Until we get to that moment, you're still not knowing who this guy is.

Brian (59:50)
And I think you maybe should realize that it's Thomas because I don't think they would even bother having words with Kyle Hamilton and I don't think Kyle Hamilton would knock on the door. But I think that it's important to note that Jim is creating this association because he's trying to sow in your mind the possibility that Thomas is actually on the red team. And if he doesn't,

sort of take the opportunity to associate him with the bad guys, then what Harry and Michael do in the following scene comes off as, sort of unwarranted and maybe kind of dumb. And honestly, Adam, that's always how it read to me. I feel like the way that they're super suspicious of Thomas, I mean, listen.

You obviously have to put them to the question to do your absolute best to make sure this isn't some sort of betrayal. But if Thomas was going to betray them, he had ample and better opportunities way earlier, didn't he?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:00:56)
Yes, but I could definitely see Harry and Michael seeing him as an opportunistic, selfish vampire, right? Well, he saw his chances of getting out of there were.

better when he was with you guys, but as soon as the tide turned against them, he would just leave you there, because he's not actually your friend. He's willing to throw you to the wolves if it means getting his hide out there. And so they are definitely feeling a lot of anger against him here. But the thing that stood out to me, Brian, is how incredibly deadly Michael sounds in this moment. And compare that to like, when we get to Crassus, Michael's just be like, I can't even rough him up, man.

It's not my job, he gave up the coin so I can't touch him. But here, says, Harry says, you think we should kill him? And Michael says, before he hurts someone, Michael said. His tone was flat, disinterested, scary actually. I shivered a little and drew my robe closed around me a little more tightly, unquote. Michael is the.

bad cop in this interrogation. And that's after Harry was the one that started the whole thing by punching him in the face. So this is like bad cop and worst cop essentially here. And they do get a lot of information out of him. But Brian, do you think Michael is bluffing here?

Brian (1:02:17)
I'm not positive. mean, Michael does later accuse Thomas of the only reason he wants Justine back is to keep on draining the life out of her. Harry, if we aren't going to kill him, let's at least put him out. And then Thomas says, you're making a huge mistake. Then Harry tells Michael to kill him and Michael follows through. So maybe Michael's not bluffing in the sense that he is potentially willing to kill Thomas, but also Michael's

definitely bluffing a little bit because this is not the kind of guy Michael is. He's not disinterested in life and death and I think that maybe if Thomas says something that makes Michael think, ⁓ he's actually here to betray us, he would take action to defend himself and Harry but he's not actively thinking

Yes, what I want to do right now is kill Thomas Wraith. However, I do think if he viewed Thomas as a person in this moment, he wouldn't even make that bluff. And it speaks volumes of his disdain for Thomas in the moment that he's willing to use the idea of killing him in cold blood as a way to get information out of

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:03:32)
Yeah, that's a great point because we see Michael go through interactions with evil beings in the future and it's rare that he just says, ⁓ we're just gonna kill him. Like, it's especially one where the whites are so much more human than the reds and the blacks. So that to me makes them a little bit closer to the Denarians.

and we see how Michael handles them in future books. Now it might be that Jim had a different idea of how Michael would handle them until he gets to those books, who knows? But to me, that is an interesting take. So Thomas provides them with a bunch of useful information. He claims again he was planning to betray Bianca and help them as soon as he got the opportunity, but she got there first. Susan and Justine are still alive in the townhouse, that's very important.

He wants to team up to save them both. He brought back Amorachius, which is very valuable. We'll talk about that in a second. Now, Bianca ordered the other vampires to each carry one of the helpless mortals out during the fire at the end after Harry left. theoretically, to turn them, right? She's not doing it out of the kindness of her heart. She's like, got all these humans here because we were going to make more vampires. I'm not going to lose them now.

So then also, Mavra skipped town apparently just after sunset. That's the last piece of information that he's giving. Now, Brian, with the sword returned, Michael seems to take this as a sign that his time as a knight is not yet over. And it appears that he was really worried about not being worthy anymore. Tears are in his eyes when he gets the sword back and he looks up at the sky and says, I hear you.

Brian (1:05:11)
Now, Michael is the kind of person to take something like this as being symbolically very important. But, I mean, yes, he lost the sword, it was taken from him. But I don't know if even Michael would think that an enemy taking the sword from you is enough for you to lose favor in the eyes of God. So Adam, what do you think?

Michael believes might have caused him to lose favor.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:05:37)
Well, there's one thing that's happened throughout this whole book, and it's put him and his family in danger, and it's what charity has been saying this whole time, is that when Michael put his trust and his faith in Harry, he was making a mistake. And so when Michael loses the sword, and his son is in ICU, and he's wondering...

Was I wrong to put my trust in Harry, to put my faith in Harry? That's the thing that I've done recently that is the most likely to make me unworthy is I made a poor judgment of Harry's character. so here, not only is he being, sort of crisis of faith is over because he now feels reassured that he is worthy, but that also his friend Harry

is worthy of his trust, of his faith, and he didn't want to be wrong about that.

Brian (1:06:37)
And I think you're absolutely right and that this is a real turning point because we've speculated that when Michael first soul gazed Harry, he might not have seen sunshine and rainbows. Nobody does. But Michael at that point said, okay, I'm gonna make sure that this person to the best of my ability stays on the right path because that seems important. And maybe he's been worried this whole time.

I might not be enough. Maybe this is arrogant of me to believe that I can do this. Maybe I just need to, you know, sort of react to Harry. I mean, later after Harry's taken the coin, you know, Michael is, you know, wondering, does he have to sort of put Harry down? Is he gonna have to, you know, should Harry just lay aside his power? Michael's not necessarily thinking that he needs to self-actualize Harry. But in this moment,

He gets confirmation that not only, right, is Harry someone who is worthy of him helping, but that, I mean, Harry just maybe killed a bunch of innocent people. Michael saw him do it. That even God is willing to tell him that he's still walking the path.

as he goes through this harrowing experience with Harry where there are innocent casualties. that is the kind of thing that takes you from maybe being a little bit on the fence with somebody who your wife really doesn't like, who you think is kind of handling his relationship immaturally, who's causing a lot of trouble, to naming your child after him.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:08:17)
Yeah, that's a huge piece that happens at the end of this book. Now, I've got one other thing that I wanted to talk to you here about this, Brian. We've danced around this point for a little bit, and I think it can be legitimately read either way, but do you think that Harry's fire actually killed any mortals, any humans during that party scene when it went crazy? Is Harry responsible for the death of other humans the way that he thinks he is?

Brian (1:08:44)
So I think it's important that Jim leaves it ambiguous for several reasons, most of which being that because in this first person narrative, I think that's just more effective, but also because if he affirmatively says that he definitely does, he has to make some choices about how black magic works right then and there. And Jim can kind of leave those effects, those choices ambiguous if he doesn't say. But how to, I mean...

If his fire didn't kill anyone, it just didn't obey the normal laws of cause and effect. And I believe that maybe the White God was willing to co-sign some of Harry's actions even though bad things happened as a result of them. But I don't think that he made it so that the fire couldn't harm the innocent.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:09:34)
I agree with you, I don't think the white god did that. But remember, this fire literally didn't obey the laws of cause and effect. It was directed. We specifically saw its agency written on the page. I think it's entirely possible that Harry subconsciously directed this fire to only directly harm vampires and stay away from humans. Now,

Once the fire itself spread to other things beyond just the spell, it's entirely possible that that could jump and burn and suffocate humans, obviously. But I think it's possible that early on in that spell, the humans simply weren't targeted, weren't pulled into its grasp the way that the vampires were. The other thing that convinces me that Harry didn't kill

any kids, any of the innocents during this, is that Jim plants enough seeds in there that, I mean, if he wasn't trying to tell us that Harry didn't do this, I don't know why you'd bother putting them in there. Specifically, when

Michael specifically says, 11 was all they found. They're checking dental records. They said the heat was so intense that the bones hardly look human, unquote. And of course, that's reiterated later when Butters was,

His whole reason for being put on leave is because he identified those bodies as not human. So that's evidence number one. Evidence number two is Jim puts in Thomas's mouth the explanation that Bianca ordered.

all of the vampires to carry away the mortals, theoretically specifically the ones that were still alive, but maybe also the ones that were dead just in case, who knows, because they wouldn't want those dental records to show up missing persons reports later. So if the cops find, dead vampires from...

20, 30 years ago, they might not even have dental records on file anymore, but they don't want any of these kits. So I could see her having all of the surviving vampires, everybody take one or two, they grab them all so that there's no kids, dead or alive, left in that room as the fire consumes it, which to me suggests that Harry didn't actually do it.

Brian (1:11:50)
Now, I kind of agree with everything you're saying, and I'll go a little bit further as to say I'm willing to grant you that the fire itself didn't burn any innocents, but they still would have died of smoke inhalation.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:12:04)
Well, that depends on how quickly Bianca gave that order, right? Harry and co. And whether Bianca got all of them, yep.

Brian (1:12:09)
And whether Bianca got all of them, because as you said, there was

probably more humans than vampires and they were only supposed to grab one. But I will say, Adam, there is one thing that neither of us brought up that's a little bit of a deus ex machina. But if we were correct in Stormfront, that the reason why Harry doesn't bring down Thunder and Fury on Victor Sells' house is because Leia...

moves his hand to his mother's amulet and keeps him from doing a lot of black magic. And Leia was creating air pockets so that people could get out without dying of smoke inhalation. Maybe Leia gives him little bit of an assist and make sure...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:12:46)
Hmm.

Maybe that tunnel does

more than just get Harry out of there, the tunnel persists and continues to pump good clean air into the room along the floor where all the mortals are until they can be brought to safety. And then turned, right? And then immediately turned into vampires. So like, they don't live happily ever after, but at least Harry didn't kill them.

Brian (1:13:04)
it's

But well, but that's exactly that's

exactly why I could believe that that happened because Leia look the people get on the winter court in the series too much for being evil. We as readers obviously know that they're really not but Leia doesn't really care about a bunch of red court junkies. The only reason why she would do it is to keep Harry from getting the stain of black magic on him.

So she doesn't care if they get dragged out and turned right afterwards. That's not the point.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:13:40)
Exactly right.

Yeah, she is charged specifically with protecting his spiritual self, which I think would fall directly under, make sure his soul doesn't get tainted with black magic. That certainly feels like it fits, it felt like it fit in Stormfront when we talked about that in chapter 24, and it feels like it fits here. So all of those things working in concert, A, Leah potentially giving some extra clean air to the-

so they don't die and then B, Bianca having the vampires pull the kids out and then C, them only finding the bones that quote, hardly look human. And you know what, Brian, I want to believe. I want Harry to not have been responsible for those kids, but I know he's gonna blame himself for them, not just in this chapter 31, but also in future books.

Brian (1:14:32)
And the only reason why I don't think that it is as important as it is made out to be by Harry that he killed those kids is because obviously Bianca just kills them afterwards, right? They're either going to be food or new soldiers that, you know, they're not surviving. So as far as I'm concerned, if Harry killed them in their sleep with smoke inhalation, he might've done them a kindness. But Harry...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:14:49)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (1:15:01)
will, like we said earlier, Battleground effectively kill Innocence with magic in the eyes of the White Council. He will break that And if that's something that can happen as a casualty of war without Harry going dark side, then that's what happened here too. So ultimately it is important that Harry carries around that guilt for the development of his character, but whether or not

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:15:07)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (1:15:26)
they were saved might not be incredibly important in terms of his ability to resist the lore of Blackmagic.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:15:35)
Yeah, all right, so just before we leave this chapter, Brian, I did want to call attention to two really great lines in it. I don't think these are competitors for best line in the book, but I did enjoy rereading them when I came through this. And one is after Thomas explains that Bianca has betrayed him, Harry looks at him and says, well, Thomas, I don't know how new you are to all of this, but Bianca is what we colloquially refer to as

a bad guy, they do that. That's one way you can tell they're bad guys. And just like the absolute venom that like one brother would give to another brother in that exact kind of tone just feels perfect here in retrospect, looking back on this, knowing that they're brothers, right?

Brian (1:16:20)
Thomas convincing Harry to trust him also has a couple bangers.

So there's two from Thomas right around that one of which after Dresden asks why the hell should I believe you? Thomas immediately responds you shouldn't don't I'm a good liar one of the best I'm not asking you to believe me believe the circumstances that I love it's so very like Thomas his whole life has never been trusted by anyone no one ever believes he's trying to do the right thing he's just

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:16:52)
Yeah

Brian (1:16:53)
immediately prepared to be like, no, don't believe me. I am a liar. Okay. I'm a great liar. Don't believe me. That's lovely. And especially that he follows it up with

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:17:03)
And I swear to you by my own stunning good looks and towering ego that I'm not lying to you.

Brian (1:17:09)
just fabulous covering it from both ends, both the don't believe me and also I'm going to swear on the things that you think matter to me. Beautiful.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:17:12)
Yes.

I think they might matter to him also. I think he's being a little self-deprecating there, but it's a little bit truthful. But yes, I love that my own stunning good looks and towering ego. really, when I read that, has done such a fantastic job of making all these characters.

Brian (1:17:22)
They definitely do.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:17:37)
sound like they have different voices. And obviously that's important for any author, but sometimes you can read an author that has 20 characters and some of the characters kind of sound the same because they just, you know, they run out of different ways to figure out how that people phrase things. But that's just the way that Thomas speaks in his desperate, like you have to believe me moments here, make him sound like someone totally different from Harry. And yet the way that they talk with each other,

and the way that they relate to each other still feels a little bit similar and so it makes perfect sense when you find out later that they're half brothers.

Brian (1:18:14)
Yeah, it's brilliantly done and it's one of the things that makes these two chapters two of the best we've covered in the series so far.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:18:21)
And that's why we've gone on way too long.

I think we don't have time for the question for Vom he had prepared for this week. So instead we'll do that one for next week. Is Thomas a good person when we meet him? We'll find out next week when we tackle chapters 32 and 33, though realistically we might only get to chapter 32. 32 includes not only the fight where Lydia wakes up as possessed by Kravos

And has to be exercised out of Lydia, it also includes Harry and Thomas and Michael making their way through Faerie and almost making it to the bridge before finally getting caught by Leah. So that is a huge chapter, maybe the longest one in the book. So we're gonna see if we can get through that as well as the next chapter, chapter 33 there.

All right, that's it for us here today. We'll see you next week. Have a good one, everybody.