Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:08)
Welcome one, welcome all, welcome to recorded neutral territory where the spoilers go all the way through 12 months. I'm Adam Ruzzo and with me as always is a Forrest person attending a masquerade ball while dressed as Chewbacca, it's Brian O'Reilly.

Brian (00:22)
Is that the sound?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:24)
Whoa, Dan.

Yeah, down Chewie, down. All right, Brian, we are here. Chapter 23 is the chapter where Harry summons the nightmare and binds it to only attack him. But it's also an unusual chapter because it takes up basically the entirety of the daytime. We know that in the previous chapter, we were at Cook County Hospital and Harry and Michael were there after the fight in the graveyard. Charity had given birth, but Michael's son wasn't doing well. And suddenly,

Chapter 23, we're back in Harry's apartment and then in the next chapter, it's nighttime and they're at Bianca's party. So chapter 23 is the only one that takes place inside that 12 hour period. Now, there are some things that happen outside of that. We know that Harry and Michael are driving around to pick up the ritual items that Harry will need to try to summon the

and then after he summons the demon, they decide to go to the party and they have to go get their costumes. So those are the things that take place in the day, during day number three here. And this one is a very important chapter because it does help to establish how Harry is going to figure out

who the real bad guy is.

Brian (01:34)
Yeah, so in this chapter, Harry summons the nightmare. this is pivotal, not only in Harry dealing with that problem, but it also pushes him to sort of confirm that the nightmare isn't doing this of its own accord. There is a power behind it. He kind of finds that out magically, for sure. In this chapter,

And that's what spurs him to the confrontation at Bianca's party.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (02:05)
Yeah, the first thing that we learn here is that Harry is creeped out by his own lab, which certainly feels a little bit unusual, but you have to remember this is another instance of the damage to his soul that was, you where the Nightmare ate part of it is really showing through some of these scenes. Quote, back in my lab, it felt a little creepy to be working by candlelight.

Intellectually, I knew that it was still full daylight outside, but last night it brought out an instinctive fear of the dark that is a part of being human. I've been wounded. Everything, every shadow, every small sound made me twitch and jerk and look aside." Unquote. So here, this is just another example. We pointed out numerous of them so far of him really being jittery and scared way more often than normal as a result of the sort of psychic damage that he took.

Brian (02:57)
And that might be why Harry does some things that aren't exactly uncharacteristic of him, but which do speak to sort of an avoidance of confrontation that is going to cause some complications in the remainder of this book. The other thing that we hear is that Michael doesn't want to go down into Harry's lab because he's not comfortable with magic that's not directly backed by the Almighty, unless...

Apparently it's in combat or something. Is this just some early episode weirdness, Adam?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (03:28)
It does feel a little bit like that, but if we were to try to search for a Watsonian explanation here, I think we have to assume that Harry might be the first wizard that Michael has really worked with, even though he's been quote unquote on the job for some 20 years now, ever since he met Charity, he's probably been doing mostly White Knight versus Black Evil stuff, you know, he's been fighting Denarians and maybe literal demons and dragons, so.

This might be the first interaction he's actually had non-faith based magic, with arcane magic as it were. He may have dealt with some necromancers as well, which may have tainted his view of wizards as well in addition. And

So when Michael doesn't wanna go down to the lab because he's uncomfortable watching Harry sort of work this ritual magic, it might contribute to the fact that Harry doesn't appear to really explain what he's about to do because Michael doesn't take it very seriously in this scene.

Brian (04:29)
Yeah, we'll get to that in a second, but in fact we know that Michael has seen rituals before. He saved charity from being sacrificed in one of

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (04:39)
And

he was there when we caught Kravos, who was doing the ritual thing.

Brian (04:42)
So Michael probably feels the same way about the use of magic that he might feel about the use of a gun. Sure, in the heat of combat when it's life or death, fine. But every time somebody's doing it coldly in a room with deliberation, they're evil.

and it just makes him uncomfortable to think that Harry is going to use what Michael thinks of as a weapon sort of from a cold dispassionate slow place.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (05:09)
And let's remember that Harry summoning demons in the first place. And we heard him do that in full moon when he summoned Chauncey. But during that scene, I think he specifically mentions like if the White Council knew what I was doing, they would flip, right? So even then he's doing something that's a little bit closer to black magic, even if it's not really close to the line, it's closer than most other magic that wizards do.

It makes sense that Michael might be a little bit, you're doing stuff that's really like what Kravos used to do when he summoned a demon. Like, that would probably make him feel uncomfortable at this time, but when he gets to trust Harry more later in the books, he becomes much less concerned about this.

Brian (05:53)
But Adam, I honestly don't think Harry's told Michael that he's actually going to summon an evil spirit. Because what he says at the end of chapter 22 is just I can make contact with the nightmare and trace it back to whoever is using it.

And Michael, the whole time Harry's summoning and binding a demon downstairs, keeps like interrupting him. At one point he tries to get him to take a phone call from Susan. So it seems like Harry simply hasn't told Michael, I'm literally summoning a freaking demon, man. Keep the door closed and don't bother

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (06:33)
Right, nor has he mentioned how important concentration is to this ritual or that his life is in danger, right? If he loses control of this thing and the circle breaks, it can come after him in his lab, you know, already past his wards, because Harry has summoned it into this area. So it's actually really dangerous and it's very clear that he hasn't imparted that sense of danger and focus and importance.

to Michael based on Michael's reaction here. And you're right, it's played for laps where he's like, Harry, are you done yet? And he's like, he hasn't even started. And then later he's like, there's a phone call. I'll take a message. Well, she sounds really upset, Harry. I think you should talk to her, like giving her relationship advice. Like your girlfriend's on the phone and I think you should drop what you're doing and talk to her. And he's literally wrestling with a demon for his life.

That is kind of a fun comedic moment, but it also tells us something about Michael's understanding of the situation.

Brian (07:30)
And I think that that goes back to your earlier point, Adam, and to the fact that we're getting important characterization here. Not only is Harry not the kind of person at this point in his life who volunteers information that he doesn't think is absolutely necessary about the magic he's doing, you know, usually Harry's saving grace as a emotional communicator is that he's not afraid of confrontation.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (07:57)
Hmm.

Brian (07:58)
He will have an honest conversation with you because he's willing to, you know, hear out what you have to say and say what he thinks is right. And he might, because he's missing a piece of himself, be shying away from those kind of tough conversations like the one he'd have to have with Michael to convince him, yes, I have to summon a demon. Or, as we'll talk about later, one he'd have to have with Susan.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (08:22)
Yeah, that is almost certainly correct. He's lost his confidence and he's afraid of things a lot more. And that doesn't just mean the things that go bump in the night. As you say, it could mean the hard conversations that he doesn't want to have are also more scary to him at this point. Now, the next thing that happens in this scene is that he tries summoning the demon by its name that he found inside of Kravos' book of shadows, right?

Azorthragal! Azorthragal! Azorthragal! Appare! And it doesn't work.

Brian (08:55)
Adam, do you see the black smoke in the room behind you? I think you should... Yeah, just close the circle. Okay, well, Adam will be back in a moment. No, but... Harry is expecting Poof! Demon's Ghost, but he gets nothing!

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (09:02)
Yeah.

And what does that mean, right? He's calling a demon by its name, whether he thought it was a ghost or not, that should work. Harry is strong enough, he's doing it right. He eventually does get the ghost that he's trying to summon. But I think Brian, the fact that he uses the true name of a demon and tries to summon it and it doesn't show up, that might mean that Amorachius actually did

Fully kill it, not just its mortal shell.

Brian (09:41)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Bob brings this up, I believe, earlier in the book, And I think that you're right. This is pretty close to confirmation of that. The only situation where I could potentially see Harry summoning something by its true name and it not working.

is if because Harry is literally attaching that name mentally with his focus to the wrong entity, it just doesn't stick the way a true name is supposed to. And I suppose that's possible, but like he summons Mother Winter using just some names that she sort of answers to. I find it really hard to believe that even if he was a little bit wrong about what being he was calling up,

that the actual true name of the demon just wouldn't work.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (10:33)
Yeah, I think that's probably true. Now, right after this, he tries to come up with an approximation of the sense of the nightmare, right? It attacked him in his dream. knows what it metaphysically feels like. And so he tries to use that plus the ritual objects that he have, the different people that he's touched. know, Michael's wedding ring, Charity's wedding ring, name

Mickey Malone's watch and Harry's shield bracelet, right? He has all of those items that the demon has touched recently. So he's using that plus the sense of the thing and that's when he's able to pull it into his summoning circle and actually get him I was trying to figure out...

where else we've seen him do something like this. And the only thing I could think of, Brian, is in White Night, when he has to come up with an approximation of Elaine's current true name. He knew her true name when they were kids, but he had to add a bunch of elements of years of weight, of knowledge, of et cetera, to that true name when he tried to make that mental link to her in White Night.

Do you think this is something like that where he's coming up with an approximation of a true name by using the sense of the feeling of the thing?

Brian (11:47)
So I think that's really interesting because on the one hand, think you're completely right, but on the other hand, I think there's a fundamental difference. So what he does with Elaine is he sort of works out a name by doing a true name plus stuff. And this works for a human because humans, mortals have true names that can change. This wouldn't be necessary for a supernatural entity. But...

he doesn't have that base name for Kravos here. So fundamentally, even though it seems like he's doing the same thing, it's not name-based. And that makes it seem more to me like when he summons in Deadbeat the Earl King using the information encoded in DerLie-der-EarlKing.

And I wonder if actually those processes are essentially similar. Like the name is the perfect representation of the thing. And if you have that, you have it. But you could either summon something by having a name that's close to its name, like when he summons Mother Winter by saying Baba Yaga, or by having the feeling right, but the name not quite right.

like what he does here, or presumably how he summons the Earl King, because he definitely does not have the Earl King's true name. That would be a big plot point if that's what the leader Earl King gave out.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (13:09)
No.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably closer to what's going on. But I feel like it could be related in how the magic is working. Now, the phone rings while he's in the middle of mentally wrestling with this nightmare. It turns out to be Susan. Harry says he'll call her back, right? He tells Michael to take a message. I'll call her back. But he forgets to do that before they head out to the party. We noted before.

Harry took the time to call Murphy and then he took the time to call Michael, but it was busy. And then he tried to call Michael again later and it was also busy, you know, the previous night. And he forgets to call Susan back. She's like not on his radar here. He's doing life and death stuff and he'll deal with her later. That feels like a tragic moment of this particular chapter.

Brian (14:02)
Yeah, and does he forget to call her? Or does he let himself forget to call her because he doesn't want to have the conversation he needs to have with her? Which is, I'm about to do something dangerous, which is go to that party. It's way too dangerous. I might die.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (14:11)
right.

Brian (14:20)
Right? That's like, the thing that he has to convince Susan of is, I have to go because if I don't go, I'm gonna be killed. And if I do go, I might be killed anyway. So you definitely should not go. And that's a really hard conversation to have with somebody. You have to convince them that your life's actually in danger and you're gonna do something to put it in more imminent danger. I completely understand why that would seem daunting, but that's actually the kind of thing that Harry's

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (14:32)
Right.

Brian (14:47)
not always terrible at later. So yes, he's bad at sharing information about the supernatural, but he's normally not bad about sharing information how in trouble someone is or just stuff like that. So I think it's a combination of a tragic flaw that Harry has at this point.

which is that he doesn't give his allies enough information to actually understand the risks they're taking when they operate within his world. And the fact that he's been damaged by his enemies in a way that compromises his ability to do what he would normally do to protect people.

But Harry isn't out of courage because one thing he is able to do is to bind the nightmare to attack him and only him. But as he's doing it, he feels when he's holding the nightmare there, keeping it still to tag it with this spell.

that third party he suspected intruding to feed the nightmare enough power to break away. Adam, Mavra or Bianca?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (15:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting question, but I think the fact that Harry goes all around the party trying to get a feel for all the various players, right? He tests Thomas, it's not Thomas. He tests Kelly or Kyle, it's not them. He tests Mr. Ferro definitely not him. And then he gets to Hamlet, which turns out to be Mavra and he says to Michael, that's our girl. I can feel the magic is the same. So that to me suggested this is definitely Mavra intruding from the other side. Somehow she has been

informed, notified, or just noticed somehow. Maybe she's got a weird web tied to Kravos, and when he gets pulled into where Harry is, she intervenes. And presumably that's because if Harry had more time with this, he might have been able to properly force the ghost, the nightmare, to answer his question. He tries to get him to answer it multiple times. Who brought you over? Who sent you? And if Mavra hadn't intervened,

and Harry had been able to ask that question a third time, know, thrice I say and done, you must now answer. He might've said, you know, Mavra of the black court and Harry had been like, who's that? And then Michael would have had to say, oh, I know who that is. So that I think would have been an interesting twist here, but in this case, she does intervene, she does block him from getting to know, and then as you say, then,

does the best he can at that moment. Before Mavra breaks the link, he binds the ghost to only come after him. And in the process, the ghost is shrieking, I will tear out thy heart. And Harry says back to him, it's thine heart, and no you won't. Now, I think I referred to this a couple of times. This is like direct proof that whatever this being is, the nightmare, it apparently is not a native archaic.

English speaker, because it doesn't know how to use the grammar properly. And that's what brings us back to this is, know, Cravo's putting on airs here.

Brian (17:55)
And the funny thing is, if he asks the question the third time, because this might just be the nightmare being dramatic, the answer might be Leonid Kravos. And that actually wouldn't help Harry at all. It's just Kravos is a little bit too stupid to realize, ⁓ I could just say Kravos and he'll be just as confused.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (18:06)
true.

Brian (18:18)
So Kravo's not batting a thousand here in the deception category, but Harry's not able to pick up on it.

But if Harry was right, and this was a demon's ghost, Adam, would that make a difference in how the story turns out?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (18:34)
That's an interesting question. I kind of assumed if this actually was ghost and that the true name that applied to the demon also applies to the ghost, right? If that logic holds true, then I think Harry would have had more control over the thing that he

it would have been much harder for the thing to resist answering his questions, and it would have been much harder for Mavra to pull it back in a way. There's all kinds of huge implications made by Harry and by other wizards about if you have something's true name, it's game over, man. You have full control, more or less.

So I think the fact that he would in fact have the real true name of this thing would make a difference in this scene.

Brian (19:25)
Yeah, and interestingly, I don't think we really know if you have a demon's true name. Can you, according to the laws of magic, just boss it around? Or is that suborning the will of another? Like, does that break a law? Because I know that they restrict sort of the ways in which, you know, Morgan gets on Harry for if you're using the name to control Toot Toot in Stormfront.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (19:49)
Yeah, well remember in Stormfront, Harry specifically uses Toad Demon's true name, but then doesn't bind it, right? He breaks the binding between Victor and the Toad Demon, but he doesn't bind it to himself because that would be breaking the laws of magic, suborning the will of another creature or something to that effect.

Brian (19:58)
Exactly.

But.

But if the demon's a ghost...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (20:15)
Right, that seems like it might be different, right? Because now you're not talking about a potentially a being with agency. A ghost is just a group of memories that are not a living, breathing, changing being anymore. That's a fascinating question. And I'm sure somebody out there is gonna email us and remind us, this thing that happened in Ghost Story suggests.

Brian (20:36)
Well, you know, I bet that ⁓ Harry would probably give it a go because he is the sort of person who, you know, necromancy is a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Like, he lives for the gray areas, so...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (20:45)
⁓ He's gonna do necromancy

in a sense right at the end of this book when he pours all that power into the ghosts that are in Bianca's hall, so yeah.

Brian (20:56)
Yeah,

we'll talk about that. That's presumably ectomancy, but if it's not, yikes. There's another possibility though, Adam. As we've been suggesting, Kravos is not doing an incredible job of disguising the fact that it's not a demon's ghost, it's some other thing like, you know, Kravos' ghost. If Harry actually figured that out here, would that change things?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:22)
That's also an interesting question, and my guess maybe. Because I don't know that he has Kravos' true name necessarily, right? Not his true name from his own lips. he get, does the guy have a middle name? Did Harry ever hear him say his full name? Probably not. I would imagine that's not the case. So I don't know if he knew it was Kravos. I don't think it gives him that much of a

bigger advantage than he already has by properly identifying the sense of the thing and getting it here. So because he doesn't have any additional leverage, I don't think he treats it any differently.

Brian (21:58)
Yes, I think if he knew that earlier in the book, it would make a big difference. But at this moment, I mean, he's going to know that the next time he confronts Kravos anyway, right? Like that's where he finds it out. He realizes that it is Kravos and he can't do anything with that. know, Kravos wearing Lydia nearly kills him anyway. So that doesn't seem to be enough to sort of change things for Harry, even when he has that realization.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (22:02)
Yes.

Brian (22:27)
though perhaps if he had it going into the fight he'd do a better job getting a drop on Lydia Kravos once he realized the possession was happening. Now after Harry releases the demon at the very end of the chapter he comes upstairs and signals to Michael what their next move is gonna be. They're going to a party.

And one thing that Harry fails to notice, or notices, but fails to notice the significance of...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (22:58)
Yeah,

I'm guessing the man in black in Harry's head is like screaming at him. Like, it's right there! She moved it! She called, you need to know this, but he can't, you know, come out and say it. If Harry had gone to sleep, he might have woken up and go, wait, why was that invitation moved?

Brian (23:15)
Yes, if Harry took a nap right now, he'd wake up in 20 minutes after having a nightmare about, you know, Susan's phone being dead and call her immediately.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (23:24)
Yeah, so what he does say here is quote, got up and went to the mantle over the fire, but what I needed wasn't there. I frowned looking around the room and spied it on the coffee table. I bent down and plucked up the white envelope, taking the gold lettered invitation Kyle and Kelly had delivered unquote. So he notices that it wasn't where he expected, but he chalks it up to, I must have left it on the coffee table after thinking about leaving it on the mantle or something like that. And by the way, Susan, shame on you.

You know you're doing this subterfuge here. You should know well enough to put it back where you found it.

Brian (23:57)
Okay, but Adam, doesn't she want Harry to find out?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (24:02)
She was calling him probably to tell him that's what she's doing, yeah.

Brian (24:05)
and she kind of wants him to have to confront her and like she wants this to be a moment in their relationship. She just doesn't realize that she's taking this as a define the relationship conversation moment when it's a we might all die here moment.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (24:25)
Exactly. So that brings us to chapter 24 and we jump straight to Harry and Michael arriving at Bianca's mansion all dressed up in their costumes, which means that some time has passed, right? It was during the day earlier. Now it's evening. The sun has set, obviously, because the vampires couldn't really come out at that point if it wasn't. And the first thing that happens is Michael wonders.

Hey, why didn't the nightmare come after you like the instant the sun set, right? We know that you bound it to only come after you. so what do you think the reason for that is, Brian?

Brian (24:58)
there's a few possibilities. One might just be the nightmare is under Mavra or Bianca's control. One thing that we should mention is while Harry does identify Mavra as the controller, if Mavra taught Bianca exactly what to do and it just all feels like necromancy to Harry, he might not be able to tell which one of them it is. But if one of them is controlling the nightmare,

Well, they want him to make it to the party. So why would they sic the assassin on him? He's walking into the trap.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (25:30)
Yeah, that's true. Although I don't know that Bianca knows that he's planning to attend, right? Even if she interrogated Kravos' ghost, Harry didn't make the decision to go to the party until after the ghost was gone. So it's difficult to say if that's what she thinks is gonna happen, but I guess she's just banking on

Brian (25:48)
Well, she can always have him killed tomorrow if he doesn't show up at the party. So you might as well give him the chance to do the thing that you want him to do, which is get killed in public and start a war.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (26:00)
Yeah, exactly. the interesting thing here is, Brian, I think we know where the ghost is at this point. Later

Brian (26:07)
Yeah, Adam,

I think this is a brilliant revelation because I did not pick up on this at all no matter how many times you've reread this and I just think you're right here.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (26:18)
Yeah, so we know later, the next time we see the nightmare, it's possessing Lydia. This is after they have been at the party and springs her trap and Harry goes crazy with the pyro fuego pyro and he and Michael and Leah flee Lydia out of the thing and Harry kind

falls down from A, the venom that he's taken, and then B, from the smoke and inhalation. He wakes up in his apartment with Michael and Lydia, and then Thomas shows up with Amarokus. So if you remember all that, Lydia then kinda goes crazy and attacks Harry because the nightmare has taken possession of her. But when did it do that? The first time we see Lydia, she's on that dais and she is...

basically drugged out, right? She's got glazed-eyed. Look, I think that the nightmare was already possessing her. I think after the confrontation in Harry's basement where he almost got the information out of it, Mavra's pulled back the nightmare and forced it to possess the girl. Then they drug her, probably with vampire venom, so that he can't do anything, because the body is not responding. The body is controlled by the drugs. And so Kravos is in.

her body, nothing can happen, and it can't interfere with their plans for the night for Harry.

Brian (27:42)
And I always just assumed that it doesn't possess Lydia until after this whole thing, she finally falls asleep. But why does it make so much more sense for the nightmare to be possessing Lydia now? Well, there's two reasons. First, the vampires know they're not gonna have to kill Lydia.

If nothing else, Michael is going to try to interfere with them using Amarachius, and at that point they're going to be able to turn it into a diplomatic incident, they don't actually need to kill the girl with the ghost in it with the Holy Sword. That might not work anyway, because at that point, does she still count as an innocent? You know, we don't even know. But why would they go to all the trouble? Because Harry's already shown that he can summon the nightmare.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (28:32)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (28:32)
So if they

don't find a place to stash him, Dresden can do what he probably should do and just yank the ghost back for another round.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (28:40)
Yeah, but if he's trapped in Lydia and Lydia's in the mortal realm, then Harry can't summon it from the Never Never. And that's, think, the only time we've seen wizards summon spirits or demons or things from the Never Never is when they're already in the Never Never. You can't summon something that's already in the mortal world. That's the way that I kind of get the read of it.

Brian (29:02)
Right, or at least you can't summon something that's in the mortal world and sort of already trapped in a different circle. That's in fact the reason why Harry summons the Earl King in Deadbeat.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (29:09)
Right. Yeah.

Exactly right, yes. Now, Harry goes over the plane with Michael before they enter the party here, right? he reminds Michael multiple times, say, listen, don't break the truce. We're here under hospitality. They have to attack us first. We just don't attack them and we're safe. And Michael's like, listen, I won't stand by, Harry. I can't, and I don't think you can either. Wow, Brian, how prophetic is that?

because mere chapters later, Harry will indeed not stand by.

Brian (29:46)
Yeah, I mean, obviously Michael is a good judge of character here. But also, it's very funny that Harry is trying to persuade the lawful good Paladin not to be lawful good. But the reason why Harry doesn't think of that as a problem beforehand is because Harry might be chaotic good.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (30:02)
Right?

Brian (30:09)
but he's exactly the same kind of stubborn that would just get him into trouble. He can't even identify that, this is a really good reason not to bring Michael until he's there because it's also a reason not to bring Harry.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (30:25)
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's why he was smart to refuse the invitation in the first place. And now that he's here, he's stuck realizing like this is gonna be lot harder to navigate these treacherous waters than he originally thought. And as they walk towards the entrance, Thomas and Justine pull up and we meet Thomas for the first time. Now, Brian, I don't know if you have seen these threads on Reddit or the

But I've seen a lot of people say, know, what character in your head looks different than the way they're described in the page? And a lot of people say, I just never imagined Thomas with black hair, right? For some reason, he's got white hair. And I've seen that quite a lot. And of course, he's Thomas Wraith, white court. He always shows up in a limo or something like that. So there's a lot of white associated with him.

But something I noticed the first time here, Brian, when we first get introduced to Thomas, the only reference to his hair is this, quote, he was tall, pale as a statue, sable hair fell entousled curls to his shoulders, unquote. Now, I don't know if you're familiar with the color sable, Brian, but I was not. I had to look it up.

And even after looking up that color, it appears to be often a brown or a reddish brown or a darkish brown, not a black.

Brian (31:52)
Yeah, so that's the color of the fur of the animal, the sable. However, and I think this is why this didn't confuse me because I picked up these books after I'd spent way too long modding Crusader Kings 2. In heraldry, the color sable has referred to black since like middle low German was a thing with a different spelling.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:07)
You

Okay.

Brian (32:19)
S-A-B-E-L. So that sable has always meant black because it refers to this tincture in heraldry, which essentially I think has nothing to do with the animal, which is brown. So it's very confusing to refer to his hair as this sort of obscure term for black because if you just Google sable,

The tincture in heraldry is not the first Google results.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:47)
No.

And I wasn't even aware that it was a reference to a color. I knew that the sable was a creature that was prized for its fur, right? Like mink, if you're familiar with mink fur. But the sable is actually fairly unique in that the sable its smoothness in every direction in which you stroke it. Whereas most fur, when you stroke it against the grain, doesn't feel as smooth and soft.

and that's one of the reasons it was hunted nearly to extinction for its fur. And so when I read this, I wasn't aware of the color connection. I thought this was a reference to the texture of Thomas's hair being very fine and soft and sheen, right? That's what I thought it was trying to say about him.

Brian (33:33)
that makes a lot of sense because that would be why you could think it was white as opposed to just thinking it was brown.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (33:39)
Yeah, exactly. So I just thought that was kind of interesting. We do obviously get more descriptions of him later, but if somebody's reading this for the first time and they get a picture of Thomas in their mind here, it's hard to change it later, even if you do recognize it later.

Brian (33:55)
And we get some other interesting characterization about Thomas right off the bat. So Harry asks Thomas shortly after meeting him why he's being so helpful even though he's a vampire. And Harry's suspicious. And Thomas insists he's not a terribly good one, meaning he's not a terribly good vampire. That is kind of a fascinating statement, Adam.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (34:18)
It really is because it is both true and false depending upon how you look at it. If you're saying, okay, vampires are evil and he's not very good at being evil, so he's not a very good vampire. But at the same time, he is a vampire that's trying to be good, so he's also a good vampire. It's such a weird.

statement that can both be true and false depending upon how you look at the way that he's saying it.

Brian (34:47)
Right, for a vampire, he is terribly good. But there's a third way to interpret it, which is that if you look at him on sort of a broader scale, he's not terribly good because... And that's why he does some things that are still a little messed up in the first couple books. So Thomas is introduced as a character whose loyalty, morality, position...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (34:58)
Yeah, he's good, but not terribly good.

Yes. He got

Brian (35:14)
is dubious, suspicious, we don't know what his deal is, and obviously we find out what's motivating him later, but I think it's also true that in this moment, Thomas isn't as nice of a guy as he will be even three years from now.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (35:35)
Yeah, 100%. I think we're gonna be talking about this on a future question for Bob. I think we talked about asking the question, hey, is Thomas a good person when we first meet him?

Brian (35:46)
hold that until we get a little bit more of Thomas's actions in this book, because we think that'll make it a more interesting question, but we are coming back to it because given what we know now, it's interesting to think about who he is in Stormfront. So after interaction, everyone is introduced.

one by one in the party and Adam every single time I read the scene in Grave Peril I cringe and I don't just cringe because ⁓ my god this is like deliberately like so awkward I also cringe because I'm like Harry are you a freaking idiot

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (36:29)
Yeah, it's an unforced error, right? He wanted to sort of offend them a little bit or prove that he's not scared of them and he just super over-corrected to deeply offend them by being dressed as an extremely cheesy vampire. it feels like he could have been dressed as a vampire

but not this offensive, right? Is there a better version of a vampire that's not this lame?

Brian (36:57)
Yeah, I mean, he definitely could have just shown up as Lestat from Interview with a Vampire. And that would be, you'd roll your eyes at it, and he's definitely mocking you a little bit. But it's not inherently ridiculous. He's not, you know, essentially being racist against vampires in how he's he's dressing in his Additionally, he could have just gone as

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (37:04)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (37:24)
a personification of like, Kyle Hamilton and singled him out like, you know, kind of tennis whites with fangs, right?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (37:28)
Yeah.

⁓ no, we wore the same thing! One of us is gonna have to change.

Brian (37:37)
And that

would have been a pointed joke at someone's expense, but it would have actually been funny. I think the greatest sin here is that nobody actually thinks it's funny on first glance.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (37:51)
No, except Thomas, who might not actually think it's funny. We're gonna talk about that in a second. But let me ask you this, Brian, more or less offensive if he comes dressed as the Count from Sesame Street.

Brian (38:04)
That's a good question. That's a really good question. And I'm going to say that's more offensive, but not to the Red Court.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (38:12)
That's true, because he's got that Transylvanian style accent, right? So that's more of a black court

Brian (38:18)
That's

gonna get Drakul on your case, Reds are gonna laugh along with you there.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (38:25)
Yeah, that's probably true. So the last piece I wanna talk about this here, Brian, okay, so the wizards, let's say they're having a masquerade ball and somebody from outside the wizard community is invited and they want to offend the wizards as much as Harry is offending the Reds here. What could they dress up as? My first thought was like the Disney version of Merlin with the pointy hat.

Brian (38:50)
And you know, I think that that is a good thing to wear to try to offend the wizards, but they're so full of themselves. I don't think that would work. They'd be like, yes, precisely. You've nailed it. You know? So my initial thought was that you dress up as like the lamest magician ever. And whether that's, black top hat and tails or Chris angel mind freak, you know, take your Right. But one of those two. But Adam.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:02)
Yes.

⁓ jeez yes!

Brian (39:18)
I think we figured out the actual most insulting thing you could wear to a white council ball.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:25)
Yeah, it's gonna be circular glasses with a lightning-shaped scar on your forehead. And the magic wand, definitely.

Brian (39:32)
Don't forget the magic wand. Yeah.

which means that I think actually if Harry really just wanted to be insulting, he should have dressed up as a Twilight character.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:42)
That would have done it. Yes, sparkly glitter all over his face.

Brian (39:46)
Yeah.

take us to chapter 25, where Thomas saves Harry's ass by mocking Bianca's cold fury Harry's stupid costume. He actually says, I'll be sure to tell my father of this dizzying display of hospitality.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (39:53)
⁓ yeah.

Brian (40:08)
in a way that just, you know, the triple alliteration there, it just seems like he's really putting on a tone here to just make them out as being so gauche.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (40:21)
Yes, and he's actually doing a really good job here because we can guess at his actual intentions. He appears to be trying to save Harry's ass, right? Because he can feel the tension in the room and Bianca's probably like a heartbeat away from telling people to just shoot him or something to that effect. And so he's like, I've got to do something, but I can't give away.

that I'm doing this to save Harry's life. So I have to make it look like I'm mocking them while reminding them of their obligations under the rules of hospitality. That's why he has to get that word in there and make it the last word that they hear. That reminding them, keep their tempers down, actually works. And Harry does try to like mollify them, but-

After the offense he has given, I don't think just saying, ⁓ well, it was a costume party, right? You can't blame me for wearing a costume. I'm showing up as something I'm not, right? It feels like a very lame excuse.

Brian (41:24)
Well, I don't think that's an excuse. I think he at that point is leaning into the fact that he's making fun of them and he's just making it funny. Like he's making it a dig as opposed to just he's wearing a caricature of a vampire costume. It becomes less of a lame joke if you actually throw it in somebody's face. Now it's a dig, it's a diss track. Yeah. But I don't think...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (41:40)
Mm-hmm.

It's a, yeah, a dis, exactly.

Brian (41:51)
Thomas is quick thinking coming up with this. I think since Thomas saw the costume, he has been running through, what the fuck am I gonna do to get this idiot out of here with his head attached to his shoulders?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:11)
actually, BKnow in the chat points out that Twilight was not yet released when Grave and released. don't necessarily have that as an option for Harry showing up to the party, but I do believe that by the time Grave Peril is released, Harry Potter's definitely out. I believe it was 1999 was the first Harry Potter book. So that's definitely an option, though I believe, and we were talking about this before the show, I believe

Brian (42:29)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:35)
There is no reference to Harry Potter anywhere in the entire series, which makes sense. I don't think Jim wants to hang a lampshade on the fact that he's also got a wizard named Harry that came out around the same time. So it's entirely possible there is no Harry Potter in the Dresdenverse, canonically.

Brian (42:50)
Yeah, I mean, J.K. Rowling was silenced by the White Council before she could give away secrets of the Wizarding World. You know, that's...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (42:55)
Yes, exactly.

Or make them look bad.

Brian (43:00)
Right,

now Harry is involved in this entire social dynamic that he really wasn't prepared for. And that means Jim is kind of able to slip past us that, I mean, we see them. There are two hooded figures hanging out with Bianca.

And he just kind of lets that sit there. We never find out in this chapter who those people are, are they vampires? Harry never interacts with them. They're just servants on the dais with Bianca. And Dresden doesn't really stop to ask himself, okay, if they're vampires, why are they in cloaks? And if they're not vampires, who are He's just already in too deep to really give it thought.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (43:44)
Yeah, and they're never introduced. Their only role, as far as we can tell, is to like do Bianca's bidding. But we know them, per word of Jim, as Cowell and Kumori. They're here in Black Cloaks, they're at this party, they're here for a reason, I'm sure. Brian, why are they here? What's their role at this party?

Brian (44:06)
So I thought that you came up with an interesting theory. Can I spoil it for the people at him? That they're also here to learn some of the finer points of necromancy from Mavra And that's why they're, you know, serving at the party because they're not calling the shots. That's not how I thought of it after I saw that word of My thought was they're literally being set up as

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (44:11)
Go ahead, take it.

Brian (44:32)
The power behind the throne. They're actively hidden behind the throne. This is the sneaky vizier Jafar in Aladdin character, the man behind the curtain, the person whispering into Bianca's ear, the thing that has real power that has truly masterminded the event with Mavra, who is also using Bianca. And the reason why they don't want to expose

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (44:34)
Hmm.

Brian (45:00)
anything about themselves to the guests is that Cowell is a person who the other guests would recognize if they saw him with the hood down or up close.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (45:12)
Hmm, the potentially Petrovich?

Brian (45:15)
I do think that but I mean presumably some of the people here would even know if it was Dumorn or in the other popular theory, Kemmler or Dresden from another dimension or Big Bird with know a trunk and deck, right. But somebody would be able to notice who they are because Kaol is a figure that people know. Kumori doesn't seem that.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (45:21)
Hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

So is Cowell part of what we come to know as the Black Council at this point? Is he here as a Black counselor to Bianca at this point in the same way that like...

Ben and Jezaret have like one of their kind with each of the noble houses or whatever. Is this like the liaison from the black council to Bianca, you know, trying to get her involved in their machinations already this early?

Brian (46:09)
you jest, literally, yeah. Petrovich is the White Council's expert on, drumroll please, Red Court vampires. He is the one who knows them, so if it's him, there's a really good reason why he would be the point of contact for the Circle with But also, we're gonna talk about later...

Morgana's athame is a weird thing for a vampire to have. It's not a weird thing for a wizard to have. So it stands to reason that Kaol might have been the person who brought that poisoned gift for Leia. In which case, yeah, he's working on sort of team outside at the very least at this point. And moreover,

If Mavra is really working for Drakul and if Drakul is not in league with the Circle, then the only reason why this party has to do with the larger meta plot is that those hooded figures do have something to do with the Circle.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:18)
Yeah, I think that's really the only conclusion we can make. But we're gonna talk a lot more about Cal and Kumari in the future. Let's move on for now. Kelly appears with Kyle, they intercept Harry and Michael, and Kelly no longer appears to be half-crazed the way that she was the last two times that we met her, which is sort of an interesting change suggests

She has been allowed to feed finally. She's no longer on a diet because she had to repair all the damage that was done when she got exposed to sunlight during the fight Sumner's Textiles.

Brian (47:55)
And also, presumably, while they did want Kelly to try to get a little control back by refraining in the time before the party, they do want her to have her wits about her in front of the neighbors. So, definitely make sure that she's sated when the show starts. However, Kelly has clearly been out of the loop because she definitely doesn't know who Michael is, Adam.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (48:09)
Mm-hmm.

No, she says specifically, for a moment, you almost had me thinking he might be a true knight templar. And then touches his arm and promptly bursts into flames, which is an amazing moment, Brian. I have to say, I did not quite expect it to be that grand and explosive. Like I thought something would happen, but then when she bursts into a sudden flame just from.

touching him. He doesn't have to do a Latin battle cry or anything.

Brian (48:51)
Yeah, I love this for a few reasons. Because of course, when she's kind of mocking him by saying he might be a true knight templar, she's one saying, you you literally brought like a knife to a gunfight here, buddy. This person is out of time. They're a relic. But also, I thought this might be like a true crusader, a true Christian knight.

Kelly probably thinks of it in those terms, whatever you think of the Templars. So the funny thing is, as Harry kind of suggests, he's kind of worse than just being, you know, ⁓ a crusader with true faith. This is fist of God. And if you're going to use that terminology, you need dramatics here. But

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:33)
as Harry says, yes.

Brian (49:41)
One thing that I do love is that Michael plays this off like it's embarrassing that he just caused a vampire to burst into flames.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:52)
Yeah,

sorry, I didn't mean to make a scene.

Brian (49:56)
And for all of his lack of sort of social graces and understanding how to handle this room, he's definitely a fish out of water here. I wonder if in this moment he realizes that by playing this nonchalant, he's just become the scariest person to every Red Court vampire in the room.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (50:15)
Right? They're about to square off later and if they shoot him, that's one thing, but the fact that they can't touch him without bursting into flames is pretty problematic in a fight. Now, one of the other things you mentioned is that Harry refers to Michael as the fist of God, right? He says, quote, let that be a lesson to you. Hands off the fist of God, unquote. Now, I went back and looked, we do see him refer to Michael that way.

Earlier in this book, in chapter 22, when they're in the hospital, Harry specifically says, ⁓ great, all I need now is a Christ of faith and a bad case of career doubt from the fist of God. Now, he's narrating that in his head to the reader, right? He's not saying that out loud. Here he says it out loud. Michael doesn't correct him, probably because they're surrounded by enemies and having a debate about what his role is right now.

shouldn't be a top priority. But the next time that Harry says it out is in death masks during the interrogation of Cassius. And in that scene specifically, Harry says quote, I stood up angry enough that the chair fell over. Michael, if you turn the other cheek on this bastard, he'll tear it off your face. You're supposed to be the freaking fist of God. No, I'm not.

Michael said, the purpose of the knights is not to destroy those who serve evil, unquote. The implication that he goes on to say is that their goal, their purpose is to save those souls from evil. So Michael does not envision himself as the fist of God. That's Harry's name for him, but it's a misappropriation, it's a misunderstanding of the knight's purpose.

Brian (51:59)
Or it's a little bit of Harry sort of wishing that into being because when he needs a fist of God, he does call Michael. And so far, the Almighty hasn't really left him hanging too because the last time you found Harry using that name is in small favor. When Michael carves a literal swath through the Hobbes in the train station.

in what is one of the top crowning moments of awesome for anyone in all of the books.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (52:30)
Yes, and followed by Harry again narrating to the reader, I don't call him the fist of God as a pet name, folks. Like he's breaking the fourth wall and talking to you directly and saying like, that's why I call him that, because sometimes he does perform that way, essentially.

Brian (52:37)
Woof.

So the chapter ends here with things at the party tense and edgy, and Tom is revealing that the wine is poisoned and Harry's just inadvertently drugged himself. But nothing gets spilling over into open violence despite Harry's provocations. And we're gonna find out really quickly that...

The vampires aren't deciding that today is not the day for a fight. They just didn't really expect things to potentially kick off so soon.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (53:16)
Yeah, it definitely seems that way. We're gonna definitely ask ourselves, like, what is Bianca's goal here? And specifically, Harry changes his mind over what that goal is, like, three times this book. And I think he finally lands on what we're supposed to believe the true motivation is, and that is in the next set of chapters, I believe, that we're gonna be looking at. So.

We're gonna be talking about chapters.

the next episode for Grave Peril is next week, April 3rd, where we're gonna do chapters 26 and 27. where Harry meets Mr. Pharaoh and also when Susan accepts Leah's bargain. And that's when we're gonna talk about

bargains in general here that we asked that question for Bob a couple of weeks ago, but if you want to have some input, you can send it to us, mac at rmt.fm. What do you think is the Faye bargain that could have been twisted the mortals favor easiest, but just changing some words or part of the deal as best as possible? So that's what we're going to talk about next time.

Brian (54:16)
Yeah, and if you have any other sort of ideas about Faye Barkins, who makes the best one in the series, who makes the worst one, we'll also be talking about that kind of thing too.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (54:26)
We don't have a question for Bob this week, so that is gonna wrap it for us now. We will see you next time.