Recorded Neutral Territory - A Dresden Files Podcast

Baloreilly (00:00)
So Adam, are you a Game of Thrones fan? Are you a Song of Ice and Fire reader? Did you read them?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:07)
Not since they killed, wait, No, let's put it that way.

Baloreilly (00:11)
So I'm a frustrated A Song of Ice and Fire fan, love the series, but you know, the fandom has gone a little crazy because it's been 12 years since the last book. a ⁓ theory that's been making the rounds the A Song of Ice and Fire community started as a joke, every day it picks up more converts to its banner is that...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (00:23)
I'm a Rathaus fan, I know.

Baloreilly (00:38)
a was born of Daenerys. He's Daenerys' actual kid with Drogo

The dead kid is the misshapen baby that kills Joanna Lannister. reason I bring this up is because we got so many answers about time travel in the Shadow Harry question I'm just really glad that Jim has kept the gaps to a manageable number of years. Because I feel like we're moments away from, know, Bob is the time traveling Merlin.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (01:07)
Yeah.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (01:23)
Welcome one, welcome all. Welcome to recorded neutral territory. Remember, the spoilers go all the way through Battleground. Quick note, we will not be releasing an episode next week, the 29th. We're taking that week off, but we'll see you again the week after that, September 5th. Let's jump into it. I am Adam Ruzzo, and joining me as always is a dark reflection of the soul. It's Brian O'Reilly. Welcome, Brian.

Baloreilly (01:48)
⁓ Have you ever thought about eating more cheeseburgers? ⁓

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (01:52)
all the time.

Baloreilly (01:54)
I knew it. So we're going to meet what we're calling Shadow Harry.

in this episode. Obviously, Harry's subconscious is something that we're going to see again many times throughout the series, but this is our first introduction to him. And we're going to discuss this more at the end of the episode in the question for Bob segment. But we should just note some things in the beginning. Harry is passed out unconscious after he gets out of the police station in the arms of Tara and Susan after the Loup Garu attack. And

shadow version of himself that he meets in this dream world is Harry, but very different. Specifically, he's more well-groomed. He's dressed in a black leather duster, not a canvas duster. He's actually just dressed in better quality clothes as a whole. He's got neatly cut hair and a short beard, not quite an evil goatee. He carries himself with confidence and wears cologne.

And these little notes don't by themselves give us a lot of insight into exactly what Harry's subconscious is or represents. But let's keep them in mind when we move into our later discussion because they paint a picture that we think leads to some interesting questions and maybe even some more interesting answers.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (03:16)
Yeah, and that's what we asked about this week. So we'll talk about that later. We'll put a pin in it for now. So Shadow Harry introduces himself as Harry's subconscious. They talk for a while. It takes a while for Shadow Harry to convince regular Harry that they are both the same, that this isn't a weird dream, that this is real. He's having a conversation with his own id, more or less. And once Harry kind of buys into it, or at least decides to stop fighting it, they have this conversation about the case.

This seems like a way for Butcher to bring back all the facts of the case back to the front, just had this massive fight scene, and it may be at this point that the reader has forgotten all the details that they learned about the Macphin's side of the story, et cetera, couple, three or four, five, six chapters ago.

Baloreilly (04:04)
Yeah, someone mentioned in the question for Bob that there was actually a noir radio the detective would often have conversations with his own subconscious as a means of processing the clues. And that's very much what's happening in this chapter. We're recapitulating the details of the case. One of the things that ⁓ Harry Shadow points out is that he doesn't trust

not even Susan, a couple hours. I think this is the reason we get the detailed physical intimacy between Harry and Susan in chapter, I think it's 27.

Harry coming to terms with the fact that he needs to trust Susan to see his vulnerabilities in a very literal sense in that chapter.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (04:51)
Yeah, another important piece of this chapter is that this is Jim saying to the audience, listen, I know this guy is flawed. This is an examination of his flaws by his own self. Like this is not aspirational character just yet, as we've talked about in the past, how Carmichael's more of an aspirational character. Harry makes a lot of mistakes, has a lot of flaws, and he's examining them in this chapter.

Shadow Harry points out that he needs to stop trying to protect Murphy and rather he should arm her with the knowledge she can use to protect herself. And that's obviously something that Dresden takes to heart later in the series,

So Shadow Harry basically suggests that he needs to focus on the future, he needs to figure out what he will do and stop dwelling on what has He then introduces the concept of Elaine.

that we haven't heard before and we get a little bit of backstory, Jim just kind of squeaks in a little bit there that kind of tempts us to learn more about her in the future, which we'll find of course in Summer Night. Then he points out that Harry should not be trusting Tara and all of these things sound very reasonable when Shadow Harry says them. After all, he's saying them very confidently and he's addressing things that we as the reader can clearly see are Harry's flaws, but.

Brian, one of my favorite parts of this is that Shadow Harry is not infallible. Yes, he's delivering some very much needed, like harsh truths to our but he's not right about everything because Tara does turn out to be someone that Harry can trust. She saves him in the next couple chapters that we're gonna be talking about and she's already helped him escape from the police, et cetera, et cetera, and she turns out not to be responsible for any of the killings.

I just think it's very clever here that Shadow Harry seems so confident and suave and has all the answers and yet it's obvious that he's wrong about some things and that's kind of what makes the id dangerous.

Baloreilly (06:54)
Right, it's really highlighted when the Shadow gives his threat assessment to Harry. Not just Tara West, discusses the threats Harry's been ignoring. Marcon, the cops, the street wolves. I don't know that Harry has been ignoring these threats necessarily, but it is good advice for him to pay attention to the ways that these things could cause him trouble as he tries to solve this case.

On the other hand Marcones not going to get in Harry's way at all. In fact, all he's going to do for the rest of this book is effectively help The cops in general aren't going to cause any problems for Harry. The FBI will, but the SI certainly won't. And Murphy is going take what happened at the station as a reason to begin to trust Harry again. all at once.

not entirely, but enough to save his life ultimately. So Shadow Harry makes a lot of reasonable, id-fueled calls about what might happen, but he's not operating from a place of perfect foreknowledge of the events that are to come.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (08:04)
while we're on the subject of Elaine, I think you pointed out that the fact that he calls it Elaine's fall, you seem to think that that is Harry at the end of the story referring to something that has yet to happen.

Baloreilly (08:21)
Yeah, I think this is big points in the favor of the Elaine Kumori theory. I think when we first mentioned this, you said, well, could this just be early book weirdness? And I think you were actually onto something. I think it is, think you were onto something. I think it is, but not in the sense that this is fact that Jim is gonna change in the future.

It's him letting something slip that maybe he shouldn't have done this early. Elaine has fallen. She is on the dark side. When we meet her in summer night, that's kind of what's going on a little bit, but that's a very recent development. This makes a lot more sense if she's already Cowl's apprentice at this point. And remember, we're going to see Cowl and Kumori

in Grave Peril. They appear in the next book. So if Elaine is Kumori, it has happened by this point in the story. I also think it's very interesting from a character perspective that three of the major female love interests of Harry's life are all discussed here. Murphy, Susan, and Elaine. With regards to Susan...

We're told that Harry doesn't trust her, as we said. With regards to Murphy, Harry is told that he needs to arm her with the knowledge to protect herself. He's going to do that in summer night. And what do we find out with regards to Elaine? She's alive, that's true, and she's fallen. So these are some accurate statements about these characters from the perspective of Harry in this book and the rest of the series.

And it lends credence to the idea that Harry's problems with women, his chauvinism, comes from this place of deep injury and mistrust of himself because his very subconscious is wrapping his inability to share things with Susan and Murphy into his guilt over Elaine.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (10:31)
Yeah, and that's interesting because I had read it differently. I had read Elaine's fall as at this point in the book, he doesn't, he hasn't met her yet and he's still under the impression that she willingly joined Justin in trying to subdue his will and trying to subdue Harry's will. And later she will proclaim, and I think I believe her when she says this in summer night, that she was

enthralled by Justin and Harry at this point in the book has not heard that explanation and does not believe that that is the case. felt betrayed by Elaine. this point in Fool Moon, she's already fallen. She fell and became a bad guy and

tried to hold him in place while Justin tried to take away his will. So I think you could say her fall reflects that original betrayal. I think it's also an interesting speculation that it implies a fall to come because we know by the time we get to White Knight, she is essentially a good guy. She's trying to protect these women that are being taken by supernatural forces. She ultimately helps lead the paranet. She becomes a good enough guy that Carlos looks the other way and doesn't actually hunt her even though she's a warlock.

Baloreilly (11:48)
I certainly agree that Elaine was, as she tells Harry, enthralled in Summer Night. I think that that is a truthful statement and it's correct to analyze it that way. And I think something that we'll get to...

in the next book or two is why by White Knight she is a character that seemed to have recovered from that fall in a way.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (12:13)
that can

lead herself to an even bigger fall later?

Baloreilly (12:16)
Well, in a sense, if Elaine is Kumuri, then in every book where we see Cowl before changes, Kumuri does appear. Because Cowl, of course, appears in White Knight, and Elaine is there too. And what Elaine is doing is actually in line with Cowl's plan at that point.

So I don't think Elaine is actually working for Cowl in that book. I think it's a lot more complicated than that. But I do think the notion of enthralling is something that has occurred. And it's part of the reason why Elaine is so virantly upset at the idea of the White Council controlling her in White night, even compared to where she is in summer

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (12:59)
Okay, so have a lot of that sort of catching up on the case via Shadow Harry here.

and then Tara shakes Harry awake, he's still in Susan's car having just left the police station, and conveniently for the plot, Susan's almost out of gas and they're being followed and Harry needs to come up with a plan, otherwise they're in trouble. And what does he decide to do, Brian? Clearly the most level-headed thing anybody has ever done.

Baloreilly (13:28)
He jumps out of a moving car with the idea that apparently he's gonna take on the whole gang in one go. That might not be a good plan, and it's certainly not what a all-knowing character would do in this situation.

But I also think it's a little ridiculous for Harry to even attempt at this point. He knows he's essentially tapped out of magic.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (13:56)
yeah, and he's lending a lot of credibility to Bob's super coffee to get him through this next moment. But I think it's also reasonable for Harry to make a very boneheaded move right now just got woken up from what little sleep he's been able to get after a horrifying fight.

with, that was super stressful where he lost a bunch of friends, they died in front of his eyes, Murphy's injured, Carmichael's gone, and all the other terrible things that have been happening to him since he woke up in that motel. He's groggy, he's beat up, and he's not thinking very clearly. This is a moment where Dresden will come up with a dumb plan. I could buy that. So it doesn't feel like the idiot ball to me.

It just feels like Dresden is in a really bad head space and he makes a bad call here to jump out of the car. Because what does he do after he jumps out of the car? He blasts their tires off the truck and it crashes. Why couldn't he have just done that while he was still in the car and they all drove away? This is the thought I have. And obviously it's because, he didn't think about that until after he drank the potion.

which he didn't do until after he jumped out of the car. So it's a comedy of errors, really.

Baloreilly (15:14)
Yeah, congruent with Dresden's character to first engage in lone gunslinger routine and then come up with a potential plan that has a chance of working.

But I think to a certain extent, this is an example of a little bit of that station to station plotting we were bemoaning a little earlier in the book, creeping back in and being rescued as an effective narrative device by how effectively it plays into the characters flaws. Because what's ultimately going to be the result of this, Jim is going to contrive to get Harry knocked out for another whole bunch of hours where nothing happens until, ⁓ it's

time we're about to have demon werewolf loosen the countryside again.

What else could Harry be doing in that time period? He doesn't really have a specific objective to pursue here. So Jim either needs to come up with some new obstacle for Harry to discover and overcome, or he needs to contrive some way to get Harry additional information before the final confrontation with the Loup Garu

So Adam, if Butcher didn't do this, if he didn't knock Harry out for hours, do you think there's any reasonable other thing Harry could be doing to advance the story?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (16:41)
That's an interesting question. I think if you flip these things around, right, instead of passing out in the car and having the conversation with Shadow Harry, if the car had reached its destination, like maybe another motel or someplace, obviously it can't go back to Harry's apartment, it's under, it's being watched by the police, whatever, maybe back to Susan's place, wherever you wanna go, convinces him, you need sleep, you're not gonna be able to figure anything out if you're.

if you're groggy and sitting like that, you need sleep. And then she convinces him to sleep, and while he's asleep, Shadow Harry comes in and has him go through the steps of the case, and that could lead to him doing something when he wakes up. Maybe having the epiphany about the cops, or maybe figuring something out that he has to go ask the street wolves, you know, and that leads him to Denton or whatever. But I think you're right, I think Butcher had this fight at the Full Moon garage planned out, and he had to figure out a way to get Harry there.

and what actually happens after he drinks the potion is actually pretty dang badass. Like, he is awesome for about two minutes before he slumps over and basically just barely avoids passing out because he was already tapped out of magic. The potion didn't give him any extra magic or energy. It just convinced him that he had it.

Baloreilly (17:46)
Yeah.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (18:01)
And so while he was already running on fumes, he poured a bunch more magic through his system to the point where it basically shorted out. This is the scene where that happens. And later when he's in the garage, he realizes he can't do magic anymore. And more than anything else, we'll talk about this when we get there, but more than anything else, he's not worried about death. He's like, God, I might not be a wizard anymore. Like, I might not survive this either, but what if I'm not a wizard? Like that's more important to him at that point.

Baloreilly (18:31)
And I think that's good because emotionally, again, that's consistent with Dresden. Death is not something that he's afraid of any longer. He's been through Stormfront. But losing his identity? That's really scary.

Now what he actually does to blow out the car tires is a pretty slick spell as he describes it and it's nice that he gets a little bit of a confidence boost in his own effectiveness because he's been so down on himself for this whole book. But Adam I have to ask you this potion kind of monumentally backfires. It doesn't give him anything. It just gives him sort of a manic confidence. How does this scene work out if Harry didn't confront

McFin in the forest or if he only used half of the magic he had to throw at the Loup Garu if he's at 50 or 25 percent instead of a flat zero on the battery reader.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (19:27)
That's a good question. His goal here was to play for time, right? He keeps thinking all I had to do is keep him distracted and keep him from killing me or capturing me or whatever until the cops show up. So if he has more gas in the tank to continue his sort of display of intimidation to the street wolves, then maybe it works out in his favor. But we know the thing that really gets him in the end.

isn't that he's able to stall long enough, it's that there was a second car of street wolves and somebody sneaks up behind him and chops the gun out of his hand, right? After he's out of magic, he pulls out his gun and shoots Parker in the knee.

to try to keep him at bay. And at this point Parker's been smiling for a while, because he can see his packmate is sneaking up behind Dresden. He doesn't have to walk forward. Dresden thinks he's winning, but Parker's the one that's actually playing for time. That's a fun little reversal, because a lot of times you have the hero who knows something the other guy doesn't know, because you're in their head. So you know that he's playing for time in some way. He tries to get the villain to monologue or something, and this is reversed here.

Baloreilly (20:33)
Yeah, it's really good. It's a very nice subversion of that trope that Harry is the one taken for a sucker in this play for time. I do wonder if Harry was a little bit more experienced or if he was just fully rested. If this ploy by the street wolves wouldn't really work because obviously Harry knows there's a ton of people in this gang. He shouldn't just expect one car. They ride motorcycles anyway, right? So

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:00)
Yeah, and a more well-rested

Harry probably would have remembered that Susan said there were two cars following, that Mertara said that there were two cars following them. Now, I remember doing a reread, I remember reading those two cars and going, yeah, one of those was Roger. And then I got back to this point where reveals that there were two cars, and I was like, wait a minute, so Roger was also following, Roger was following the street wolves, and it's just one of those reasons that Full Moon can be so...

confusing and convoluted on a reread. There were actually three cards following him and he only clocked two of them and so you have to figure out which ones were which. So anyway,

Baloreilly (21:38)
It's very like an old noir style book. Have you actually started The Big Sleep yet?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:44)
Yes, yes,

I'm thinking I'm on chapter like 15 or

Baloreilly (21:47)
You'll have to tell me if you think that plot or the plot of Full Moon is more convoluted because that one I think might just not make sense. Ultimately, the movie, I will just say, doesn't make sense. But it's definitely straining credulity a little bit that everything is kind of happening in this perfect lockstep

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (21:51)
Okay.

Baloreilly (22:09)
to drive the plot. And listen, that's part of a story. Things happen in a dramatic fashion. That's why it's a book, right? But you can just sort of see the moving parts in Full

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (22:21)
Yeah, so if, to answer your original question, if Harry hadn't been completely on empty when he took the potion and did this stunt, I think then it's down to a coin flip of does he notice the guy behind him, right? Maybe this version of Harry, it really just depends on how much gas he has in the tank. If he's fully rested and alert, he'd maybe have deduced when Parker starts smiling, he's got something up his sleeve, what, God, the other car, and turn around in time.

Right? And maybe a later version of Harry would do the same thing. He'd look for the other angle. He'd look for the hidden ace up the other guy's sleeve and realize, I need to be looking behind me. There's something going on. But given the situation, it makes perfect sense that this version of Harry did not see the other guy coming and he gets captured.

Baloreilly (23:10)
and that brings us to Harry waking up hours later in the late afternoon of the last night of the full moon. ⁓

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (23:18)
Probably 12, 12 to 13

hours later at least, because it was probably late at night, early morning when he gets captured.

Baloreilly (23:25)
I mean, we figure that the Loup Garu transforms sometime around moonrise, which is going to be pretty early in the fall in Chicago. The fight doesn't seem to last that long. Now, maybe they're actually in the car for a while, and that's why Susan's running out of gas. sort of...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (23:35)
Yeah.

Right, she's been trying

to lose them and failing and that's why she's out of gas. That makes more sense, you know what, I like that interpretation, because my first thing was like, ⁓ of course she's out of gas, yeah, whatever Jim, like just happens to be out of gas this moment, but you're absolutely right, she drove all the way out to Wolf Lake Park, she drove back to the thing and then like, she's probably driving somewhere to a motel or something and then realizes being followed and then tries to like lose them a couple of times and can't and that's when they wake Harry up. I like that version of it better.

They wake him up only because she's running out of gas. Okay, I buy that. So this is chapter 22 is what we're moving into here. Harry wakes up to find his wounds tended again. How convenient that he is again patched up. Thank you, Parker. Keeping him alive just long enough. now, Brian, it's described that he has an IV in his arm and he's got like a blood bag hooked up to it.

Is this like a street wolf blood that's gonna juice him up for the final fight or is this just regular blood from the hospital? What do you think? Plasma?

Baloreilly (24:44)
You know.

I bet the street wolves literally steal blood from the hospital because when it's not the full moon and they get beaten up really bad, they're not recovering from it instantly. So I wonder if they're actually stealing medical supplies or grifting them in some way, shape or form. One thing that I find really interesting in this scene is that as you noticed, it has the sense of being

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (24:51)
You

Hmm.

That's true.

Baloreilly (25:15)
The street wolves are at a bar, they're coming back towards the end of this perhaps. It seems like it's very late, but it really can't be because the Lugaru is several chapters away from transforming. So this must be sometime in that kind of oct-

October afternoon that perpetually seems like it's about to end there's that cloud cover

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (25:44)
Yeah, from about

1.30 to five o'clock, it feels like late afternoon. the little overcast, that kind of a thing. I could definitely see that. And obviously, he's gauging what time it is from inside of a garage with every window plastered over and painted. So he's not gonna get it perfect. So I agree with you. I think it's early to mid afternoon at best.

Baloreilly (26:05)
And Harry, think partially because he feels like he's running out of time at this point, does this odd fourth wall break, addressing the reader directly and asking, did I ever tell you about my dad?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (26:18)
Yeah, that's kind of bizarre. There's one other time that I remember that we specifically saw Harry address the reader because as we've talked about in the past, most people theorize that these books are being written by a Harry that has survived everything to the end of the series and these are like his memoirs, right? in Stormfront, he tells you, know, look me up, I'm in the book. He's talking to you, the reader.

when he says that at the end of the book. And this is the only other time I can think of where he says that, at least that we've read so far, entirely possible he does it a couple more times in the series. Did I ever tell you about my dad? And then he goes and reminisces about his father being a magician. Magicians are good at escaping things and et cetera, et cetera. He decides he can get out of these bonds, which right attitude to have. If you're a prisoner, you need the attitude that you can get away or you never will. So that's important. And then he overhears

conversation between Parker and Flatnose that he's only being kept alive because Marcon asked for him to be kept

So Brian, why do you think Parker is taking orders from Marcon like this?

Baloreilly (27:29)
I do think it's interesting because the whole reason Harry's in this situation is that challenging Parker's authority and his territory immediately escalates to death match level And now, Marcon is challenging his authority, his ability to win that death match, and Parker's just letting him do it.

Obviously that's because as Parker himself says, Marcon has ways of making Parker and the gang's life difficult that are unique due to his power and position in the underworld. But it does seem a little odd to me. It's almost like when it comes to things that are innately human and civilized, getting the cops...

sicked on your trail, having your suppliers start to hike their prices on you. The street wolves don't indulge their rage spirits as readily. But when it comes to a physical violation of their physical den, that's when the wolf really comes out.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (28:42)
So I think here that Marcon is probably approaching this the way that he's supposed to. Marcon knows that they're super territorial, and I think he probably approached it like, would take it as a personal favor if you could keep him alive until I get there kind of a thing. That would appeal to their pride, and it would not really rub them the wrong way as in like, like threats would not work.

Baloreilly (28:56)
Mmm.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (29:07)
but if they already know he's a powerful guy, they don't want to be on his bad side, and he asks diplomatically like that, and in a way that he's like offering them a future favor, the way that mobsters do, that might be enough for Parker to say, I don't want to beef with him, it'd be bad for me and everybody else involved, I'll keep him alive just for today, and then tonight I finish him off in front of everybody, and I prove that I'm not to be messed with, you know? That definitely fits his MO, I think.

Baloreilly (29:36)
That makes a lot of sense, appealing to their vanity, as opposed to Harry, who walks in the door and immediately kind of puts the squeeze on them. Yeah.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (29:42)
Yeah, just accuses them.

All right, so anyway, Flatnose challenges Parker in this scene. Parker puts him immediately into what sounds like a headlocker or some kind of an armlock or something like that. ⁓ Harry decides, ⁓ well, I got no way out. I guess my best plan is to piss off the guy that wants to kill me. That doesn't quite work out for him.

Baloreilly (30:05)
my god, his reasoning here is that if he makes Parker mad enough, he's going What exactly?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (30:15)
He's gonna leave

the room to get more duct tape to put over his mouth or something. It's a very shaky plan, but at the same time, Dresden's got real bad cards here. He's gotta play them as best he can.

Baloreilly (30:27)
I suppose that makes sense, I guess he really should just wait for Marcon to show up and try to leverage that situation. right now it's...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (30:35)
Well, he's gotten, he went to

so much effort to get his bonds broken, right? He managed to break out of the duct tape that's holding him. But then right as he does that, Parker and Flatnose walk in and he's thinking, I just need to get them to leave for a little bit longer and I'll be able to leave on my own two feet and they won't know.

Baloreilly (30:52)
And I guess that does make a degree of sense. Is he gonna be able to outrun a couple of rage-fueled lycanthropes? Probably not. But two against one is better than three against one, or where Marcon goes, Hendrix follows, so four against one. So I understand the plan there. But man, he is saved by the bell when Marcon arrives, because Parker is literally about to cave his head in.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (31:00)
Probably not.

Yeah,

and Marcon shows up the last second, instructs Hendrix to shoot Parker if he does not drop the tire iron that he was about to use to beat Dresden with. one thing I wanted to point out here is Marcon first explains to Parker, hey, ⁓ Hendrix has a 12 gauge with solid shot rounds in it. They will take out huge chunks of your body, even though I know you can heal.

it's gonna take you a long time, and so you've lost this round, buddy. And that just shows his forethought, and another thing that shows his forethought here ⁓ yeah, I know your friends are coming back, but their motorcycles have all suffered flat tires quite mysteriously. Like, man, Marcon plays the long game so well, and it occurred to me,

that there is a great comparison to be made to another fictional character that always thinks 20 steps ahead, and it's Moriarty. Moriarty's not a mob boss, but he kinda is, right? He's running a secret criminal enterprise as a consulting criminal. It's not a perfect comparison, but I feel like the way that Marcon is constantly...

out thinking his enemies, that's what, that specific aspect of his character is what allows him to stay alive as a freeholding baron for as long as he does.

Baloreilly (32:46)
Yeah, Marcon puts the magnificent in magnificent bastard. He truly thinks of everything, even the stuff that... how?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (32:57)
He's like a reverse

Batman.

Baloreilly (33:00)
Precisely. mean, Batman, from the perspective of people who don't know all his rules and his code, is a vigilante who you just can't stop. He's just too smart. He's just too good. And Marcon is similar, frankly. He keeps Chicago safe, fundamentally, in the later books of the series, and he's crazy prepared. The fact that he has him bring the shotgun that can

even though Marcon has no reason to suspect that lycanthropes are real except he read Harry's report like yesterday is just you know thinking on your feet he's really a master of it

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (33:41)
Yeah

Absolutely. So one of the things that happens in this scene is Marcon offers Harry the same deal that he offered in chapter 10 of this book with the additional proviso that he will also make sure that Murphy will have all the heat that's being brought down on her from the city hall and internal affairs that will all go away. So he's basically adding a cherry on top to the deal that was already phenomenal in chapter 10 and

Harry basically already thinks this is bad. This is a bad deal. I'm not taking this Murphy would not want me to help her By using dirty money this way and what does he do? He tries to use his magic to like knock out both of these characters one of which has supernatural healing and resilience at this time so again not a great plan Harry, but it goes awry because his magic

fails him completely. The best he can do is cause a couple of tools to like, shudder a little bit instead of fly at the targets that he was trying to do. almost tried, not almost, he was okay with killing Marcon with magic in this moment, or at the very least killing Parker with magic in this moment. He says, I'll deal with the White Council later, right before his magic fails him.

Baloreilly (35:09)
Yeah, it's really interesting on two counts. First, the totally running out of magic thing is something that we see a little bit less as the series continues. Dresden will get low on energy. He won't be able to do the same things at the end of books that he can do in the beginning. But this kind of utter inability to make even the smallest thing happen. He has trouble with a hex later in the book.

is sort of unique to Fool Moon. And Jim is going to figure out other ways around this in the future. Throw some thorn manacles on him and you can't have him slinging spells around the bad guys. Does this running out of magic thing work for you in this book?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (35:46)
Hmm.

I'm gonna say no, not in this I don't mind the trope. I think it's very cool to take a character who's had this power and make them powerless so that they have to rely on something else. If Harry had lost his magic here, but then...

used his cleverness or his connections or his friends or whatever other sources of power that he had available in a fun, clever, interesting way to overcome the challenge, that is a good use of that trope. And I think a good example there is Ghost Story. In Ghost Story, Harry is powerless for basically the first half of the book. He eventually figures out how to use his memories as weapons. But even then,

Baloreilly (36:29)
Mmm.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (36:38)
He has to at some point realize, ⁓ and I am using it up at a tremendous rate. I can't keep doing this. And so he has to use his smarts to outsmart the enemy and communicate with what people he can in that book. And that is what makes that book work. Here, he doesn't. He just fumbles from one thing to another. And we talked about the amount that he gets beat up in this book can kind of...

break you out of your suspense and disbelief as one of the reasons that the book is weak compared to others. We've talked about how the convoluted plot is revealed in ways that make it a little hard to follow, but here's the other one, Brian. I think Harry is just not cool or clever character. He just does the wrong thing too often in this book.

And it's weird because we got in Stormfront talking about how he made almost every decision he made in Stormfront was wrong, but I still liked the guy. And in the end, he still had the epic confrontation and he did the right thing in the self-sacrifice and whatever, and that's still kinda true here, but I don't know why it rubs me the wrong way so much more here, that he's bumbling and wrong and failing and every choice he makes just makes him seem like an idiot or a fool rather than...

this cool, smart, cunning detective that sometimes is on the back foot, which is what he is for the rest of the series.

Baloreilly (38:05)
Yeah, I think that's a good point. think that the...

occasional clunkiness of the plot makes you less sympathetic to the rate at which Harry burns up his magic and the suddenness with which he makes important decisions. The fact that you feel like the story is moving in a distinct way from point to point but Harry never is able to catch his breath is a little bit different than the feeling in Stormfront. I think one of the reasons why I have a little bit of trouble with the

running out of magic bit is because it seems like this is something that Harry hasn't really considered to the extent that when he's in the police station he's already saying he's tapped out and he continues to throw around huge bells he has to right

It's almost he's in a weightlifting competition or some kind of athletic endeavor and he just, it's a race and he sprints off the block from the gunshot with no even notion that you have to maintain some stamina for later. And it feels like Harry doesn't understand some fundamental things about his own magic, which is the one thing that we reliably trust him

on in Stormfront. understands his own magical capabilities. That lack of wisdom here I feel like makes him a character who's less cool because you can forgive him for being new at the detective stuff, for being not the most socially gracious person. He's a wizard. So he's gotta be clued in to the wizard stuff. That's his whole redeeming quality. Now

Obviously, Harry is able to use his brain to get out of this situation by accepting, in big swishy quotes, Marcon's deal and pitting his capitor against the head of Chicago's mob.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (40:13)
Yeah, and that does work. Harry actually runs to the front door while they're fighting, and he's about to sprint out to safety, and what does he find? Agent Denton, Agent Wilson, and Agent Ben standing outside the door, not four feet away, and that has just gotta be the worst luck in the world.

but they managed, obviously Roger was following the street wolves, he reported back to Denton and said, hey, Harry's here. By the way, I think it was something we glossed over. When Harry's getting shoved in the back, in the trunk of the car by the street wolves, he looks up and sees Roger driving by surveilling the situation and all the pieces clicked into place and then Jim.

doesn't tell you what those pieces are until we get to Roger having the belt pulled off of him in the alleyway outside, which is a couple chapters from now. So that is, I think, well done use of like, ⁓ I gotta turn the page, I gotta find out what's gonna happen. How did he figure stuff out? What did he mean? What does the fact that Harris is here mean? And I think that works. I think Harris driving might just be enough to say, ⁓

If he's surveilling and not interfering, means he's a bad guy. That means, ⁓ I put the pieces together now. They're responsible for everything. So, I don't know, does that work for you, Brian, the fact that he sees Harris and then suddenly figures everything out?

Baloreilly (41:35)
It's a great reveal. absolutely works for me. I love that Jim delays telling us what the story is until we show don't tell there's a wolf at the door. mean, literally, you know, it's picture perfect. ⁓

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (41:48)
Yeah, yeah, they immediately

just transform and come in to, ⁓ actually they transform because the rest of the street wolves come out. And I forgot how chaotic this scene was because you've got Hendrix and Marcon fighting Parker inside. And then you've got Denton and the other two outside and the other street wolves show up. So now Denton and the other two, which have now turned into wolves, are fighting the street wolves outside.

Parker and Marcon are fighting inside with Hendrix and then Hendrix and Marcon escape out by smashing a truck through the door. There's so much stuff happening here and Harry's just cowering in the corner wondering when the hell he's gonna be able to run to the front door. is like a great moment to leave this on. But one thing I wanted to point out is the description of the Hexenwolves here is I think fairly different from what we get when we read the description of the Alphas later. Harry says,

They were huge, six feet long, not including the tail, and as high as my belly at their shoulders. Their entirely human eyes shone as did their bared fangs." Unquote. Now remember, as high as Harry's belly is like chest height on other people. So like that's a really big wolf.

Baloreilly (43:02)
Yeah, like four feet high. I mean, the biggest wolves are about a foot smaller than this in either direction. Square cube law, I'm not gonna literally do the math, but this is record settingly heavy wolves. 300 pounds, sure. You know, a real one can get up to 175. So these are...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (43:23)
Yeah, I don't think even dire wolves,

like the skeletons that we have of the ancient species, ever got to like 300, 350. I think those were pushing 250.

Baloreilly (43:32)
You're absolutely right. These are bigger than prehistoric beasts. They're terrifying. And it works. You know, this is a werewolf. It's not the Loup Garu, but this is a...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (43:44)
Ha ha.

Baloreilly (43:44)
scary thing. It's truly And I think that the scene, the chaos of it, the rapid fire, it's just so well done, much like the fight with the Loup Garu from the last episode. This set piece street fight is really a triumphant part of this book. You know why Jim has been trying to bring the plot here, because he knows exactly what he wants to

do and it's working so well and it's so long I mean this melee takes three chapters to resolve for

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (44:22)
Yeah, more

or less. I Harry's hiding in the back and the street wolves are outside and then they slowly get defeated and then Denton has to come in and confront Parker, if I remember correctly. We're gonna be doing all of that next time. This is gonna close out our chapter discussion for this week. It's chapter 23. This is where we're gonna leave it, where Harry's hiding in the back and all of this chaos is happening and he just doesn't know what to do next.

Baloreilly (44:47)
I cannot say enough good things about how Butcher set up this scene, this series of scenes, really. There is one thing that's been nagging at Harry's been unconscious for the whole day.

Why are the FBI only showing up now?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (45:05)
That's a good question. mean, they might have been waiting for the moment when Marcon showed up. Maybe they knew that chatter or something else that Marcon has worked with them. Remember, he's their ultimate goal. And that might be what their goal is showing up here. They want to kill the wizard. Specifically, Denton says kill the wizard he knows too much in the upcoming chapters. Or in this chapter, actually.

I think their goal here is they show up because they were staking, Roger was staking out the place and said, guys, you won't believe that Marcon's here. We can take him out now, you know? And so that's why they show up at this point. That's my guess.

Baloreilly (45:42)
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. That really resolves the issue for me. Frankly, it's sort of frigid brilliance. You know, it makes sense that the FBI would kind of gamble everything in showing up in force here, transforming into werewolves, because the whole thing's in reach, and they can pin it on the street wolf so easily.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (46:03)
Yeah,

absolutely. Okay, so that's the end of this week's chapter discussion. We're going to be talking about chapters 24 through 27. So

includes the fight here in the Full Moon Garage and the revelations that Harris gives us when he is interrogated in the alleyway. And then of course, in 27, Susan gives Harry his leather duster, the one that he will use all the way through changes. But that will bring us to this week's question for Bob.

Baloreilly (46:33)
You, as a spirit of intellect, know this better than What's the deal with subconscious Harry? What's going on there? Is it a mental construct? Is it something else?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (46:44)
I

would love to hear Bob's answer for this, but right now he's apparently working with Butters who wants to test the limits of Bob's ability to manipulate objects. You remember in skin game he was powering that skateboard? Butters wants to know if he can power a car. That sounds interesting, I doubt it, but good on him for trying.

Baloreilly (46:59)
Yeah.

Maybe some Transformers shenanigans in the future then. So we'll have to give our answers to this question and we got a lot of help from the subreddit. The main answer that a lot of people gave us Adam is that it's exactly what it looks like. Everyone has this, it's your subconscious.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (47:09)
Yeah, could be.

Baloreilly (47:27)
In the Dresden verse, it's very possible that the average person who does have a voice in their head has a subconscious that could manifest in this way.

Hospitable Fox says Molly clearly has a similar setup. See Ghost Story, right? Her mental defenses against Corpse Taker involve a bunch of Molly's and hats running around, but can break out even more personas in that scene.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (48:01)
Yeah,

and I do like the idea, and I think this is my own personal view as well, that everybody in the Dresdenverse has this, but it never manifests this way for most people. It's exactly what it seems to be. It's the subconscious that sort of affects how you think without being direct, right? I think in other media, it's often described as, yeah, the subconscious is deciding what you see in your dreams to sort of,

nudge you in one way or another and sort of prod the conscious mind in the correct way. Now, of course, Shadow Harry kind of describes himself as being the id, more or less. He's the base instinct, survival instinct. He's the desire for food and sex and like all of that stuff. And the Harry that we know and love is like the higher cognition that makes more executive decisions on when to pursue each of those goals.

that the id wants to get its hands on, more or less.

Baloreilly (49:02)
Right.

GuiltytomeTO820 says that, don't think Harry's the only one, but I think it takes significant separation of id and ego. What I mean is that Harry is actively going against his base instincts most of the time. Most wizards and people probably aren't in that much internal conflict, and it's part of what makes Harry special as a protagonist. Exactly echoing the line of thought that you're traveling down there, Adam, that Harry's repression of his desires is part of

reason why his subconscious literally manifests as a separate persona. In psychology, Carl Jung

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (49:38)
Mmm.

Baloreilly (49:42)
came up with the concept of the shadow. The reason why we're calling this shadow Harry is because of the Jungian shadow. And when I get my answer to this question, I'm gonna go into a little more detail. But the idea of the Jungian shadow is an unconscious aspect of the personality that does not correspond with the ego ideal. So it's not just the in, ego, and conflict. It's these are the parts of you that you are trying to reject

and ignore and repress, it's your ego-distonic, your self-disliked complex, your repressed id, and it leads the ego to not only resist the influence of the shadow, but to project it, creating conflict within. So the reason why this is a conversation from a Jungian analytical psychology point of view is because that's the only way Harry can process these repressed

desires if he does it through the conflict of an argumentative conversation.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (50:48)
Right, because

he's too dang good at repressing those elements otherwise. And we know that that's actually a very useful thing for him throughout the series. Saying no to temptation is something that Harry has to do often because temptation is often a trap. Mab offers him stuff, Lara offers him stuff, lots of people offer him stuff, and he turns them down and it's 99 % of the time the right thing to do.

We know that's what we'd want our hero to do in most of those situations, because it's compromising his principles. But there are situations where other, less strong wills do give in, and we can see that difference.

Baloreilly (51:28)
Yeah, that makes perfect sense, but we should be mindful of the fact that there is, in psychology, a difference between repression and suppression. Repression is a neurotic defense from an abnormal psych perspective. It's not a healthy way of dealing with unwanted feelings because you're not actually getting rid of them, you're just bottling them up.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (51:39)
Hmm

Baloreilly (51:53)
Suppression is when you're able to acknowledge those feelings and reject them and say, no, that's not actually what I want.

Harry has the willpower to reject the desires that he doesn't want to engage in, but not enough to disavow them. He still thinks that they taint him just for being there. That's his guilt complex, keeping him from being able to be okay with the fact that he's, as Michael says, not perfect.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (52:24)
Yeah, he's still, especially at this point, he's still traumatized by how much he liked the power that he had when he took out Justin. Like, he's, it's very subtle the way that that's described through most of these early books, but I think it's more explicit later that he really liked that taste of power he got when he defeated Justin, and it has haunted him and scared him about himself. And that might be why he,

puts his own limits on himself. He doesn't think he's that strong. He's decided he doesn't want to be that strong. So he kind of represses his own strength and power until later in the series.

Baloreilly (53:03)
Now, guilty Tommy Teo adds that to paraphrase Dumbledore, just because it's imaginary shouldn't mean it's not real. And the Elakosa Raptor adds to this, not directly, with the idea that even if everyone has this separation, wizards might be able to manifest it and communicate with it in a way that a normal person could not. That actually really sold me as an idea that Harry's subconscious is more alive

because he's a wizard.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (53:35)
Now on for a different take. There are other people that think that this is not what it appears. Lizard Dresden and Ninja Seifei both answer that Shadow Harry is, in fact, Quote, my pet theory is that subconscious Harry is actually time traveling Harry somehow projecting himself into his own mind. Probably not correct, but I like it. And Varam Sangui says,

We call that version of Harry the foreshadow, which I did like that name for it.

Baloreilly (54:03)
Yeah, that's great.

Not just the shadow, but literally the future. Yeah, yeah, I love it. So, ⁓ I don't think this is true. I think we've known about Mirror Mirror for too long, guys, and we're just...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (54:15)
And people are really going crazy with speculation

Baloreilly (54:18)
We just, we

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (54:18)
about it.

Baloreilly (54:19)
know that it's out there and it could be, it could be, but I don't think it is. ⁓ LORHAN92 though agrees with both two folks and Varam Sanguis and says, re-listening theory is that Fool Moon is actually an alternate timeline or time-traveled Harry trying to get Book Harry to correct some fuck-ups early on. Either successful or time-loop causality shenanigans.

then Harry starts shaping his actual subconscious to look like that because he thought the first instance was his subconscious.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (54:54)
this solves a little bit of the problem, but I'm with you. I don't think that this subconscious version of Harry is an alternate universe or a time traveling one. But my biggest problem with that is we see that shadow Harry interacting with Lash. We see that shadow Harry interacting with.

Bonnie in the future, and I guess it's talked to Mab as well in the winter mantle essentially. So like those things seem to imply that this really is a part of Harry. And Lorhan892 here did come up with a way to square that circle for me, but I still don't quite buy that this initial one is a different one. So.

Baloreilly (55:36)
And look, I think that as with all of the mirror universe theories, you can simply add a little bit more complication to the explanation and make it work. It is always possible for this to be in play. And I'm not saying that these theories don't make sense. They do make sense. I just Occam's razor. And I think they're more complicated than the situation needs them to be. But one thing I want to point out that forces that theory to add a little more complication is that, as we mentioned, Shadow Harry is wrong about a lot of stuff.

that he tells Harry about in this first appearance. So sure, it could be time loop causality shenanigans, but if this was Harry from the future already having gone through this, he should probably know that Tara West is on their side. And that ⁓

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (56:24)
and the cops

aren't gonna be coming after Harry. Yeah. So Halcyon Knights says, a Starborn equivalent to the White Court's hunger demon or a true possession he picked up along the way. Again, I'd bet on some outsider related explanation. So that's an interesting one that Starborn have this extra layer of cognition or the ability to manifest it in a way that others don't.

Baloreilly (56:27)
Exactly.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (56:54)
Originally I was thinking, well, that doesn't work because what about Molly? But to be honest, Molly's specialization is as a mind mage. So that might be the reason that we see her able to split up her personas in Ghost Story. That might be a thing that's unique to mind mages to be able to compartmentalize themselves that much. In which case, this single subconscious Harry

could be a manifestation that's only available to Starborn

Baloreilly (57:26)
And we're saying that Molly has the same thing, but of course we only see that when she's under psychic attack. Those are her psychic defenses, so it's plausible that it's not the same thing. It's...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (57:38)
Yeah, she doesn't actually

have those things where she falls asleep or passes out or whatever and talks to her own Shadow Molly. We have no indication that that is the case. We have a hint in Ghost Story that it might be the case.

Baloreilly (57:51)
Right, and it's certainly plausible because of what we know about star-borne that an extra layer of manifest will, an additional cognitive layer, does

work with what we think starborn do. They provide the will to resist the psychic attacks from the outside. That makes a lot of sense. I Halcyon Knights has a very plausible theory here. I don't think it's required to be a starborn thing, and I don't think it's something that we have to assume every starborn has.

I think this might be something that partially has to do with Harry's star-born nature, but I really think it has to do with his wizard nature.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (58:34)
Yeah,

I think that's probably correct as well. The other question that we did ask is why does Shadow Harry look so much like Harry will look in the future? Specifically, he's got on a black leather duster and that's what Susan is about to give him like two, three chapters from now. So is, okay, that does point to a, time travel shenanigans a little bit, but it might just be a coincidence. My own interpretation here,

is that this is who, and this is, by the way, hospitable fox said the same thing, this is who Harry wants to be. This is who he wants to see himself as. He doesn't see himself as that yet. He doesn't see himself as the suave, well-dressed, well-kept guy in the cool jacket, right? That's who he wants to be, and that's what the id is showing him, because the id a manifestation of wants.

and it takes a while for Harry to embrace that side of him.

Baloreilly (59:35)
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, to the extent that he does embrace that side of him even because he doesn't grow the beard, right, even though he does get the duster. So I think that that's absolutely right. But I want to just push this to that Jungian discussion we were having before. Why does this look so much like Harry will in the future? It's the collective unconsciousness, baby. What do I mean by that?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (59:43)
Mm-hmm.

Baloreilly (1:00:03)
Shadow Harry isn't just a version of Harry that has some stuff that Harry thinks are Shadow Harry is a version of Harry that has things that culture says are cool. What's a It's a symbol of male virility in a sense, right? If you can grow a beard, you're not a...

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:00:23)
And maturity, yeah, yeah.

Baloreilly (1:00:24)
you're

not a boy anymore, And the cool leather Leather jackets are cool. We've known that since James Dean in the 50s, right? Shadow Harry in later depictions will have cool scars. He'll have other accoutrements that are symbolic of somebody who is embracing the cultural definition of cool that Harry self-consciously rejects.

He is deliberately old-timey, deliberately out of step with fashion. This is a Harry who is not set of his repressed desires,

is also infused with the kind of person that the wider world tells him that he should be. Again, I'm just pulling Jungian shadow literature from the Wikipedia entry.

Because a subject can repress awareness or conceal self-threatening aspects of the self, the things about us that don't comply with our identity, with who we say we should be, the consensus of the idea of the shadow

is that it is a negative function of the self. But there are positive aspects that can remain hidden in one's shadow, especially people with low self-esteem. Anxieties and false beliefs. These aspects that are brought to the conscious mind are the id, yes.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm.

Baloreilly (1:02:06)
but they're also manifestation of all of the parts of yourself that you're unable to accept good and bad and the influence of the wider psyche of society on you that you're resisting.

Elphich 47 said something very much like that in his response. I'm not going to quote it in full here, but I think that there's this innate suggestion that this is a little bit more than Harry's id. That's why so many people have trouble accepting that it is just what it looks like, but it's not distinct from Harry. It is just a part of him. It's just a little bit more complicated than even

and he can really understand.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:02:56)
All right, I've got one more question for you, Brian. Previousrelative259 asks this question in the thread. The only question I'd have, what prompts this more ego-driven side to pop up?

Baloreilly (1:03:11)
at this point in the book, Harry is about to throw himself into the jaws of death because he thinks it'll make the people he's with a little bit safer than if he does something sane. He's about to, with an obvious death wish,

try to engage in his whole lone gunman act because in the wake of the deaths at the police station, the death of Kim Delaney, the loss of Murphy's trust, Harry doesn't feel like he really deserves to be here anymore. And as soon as Harry starts repressing his survival instincts,

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:03:51)
Hmm.

Baloreilly (1:03:52)
That gives enough fuel to the shadow for it to come through. It has to! Because it's now the thing that's trying to keep him alive.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:04:01)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think it might work in conjunction with my thought, which is Harry's ability to suppress this part of him is at least partially affected by how much energy he has, by how fatigued he is in the real world. And I'm not 100 % sure, but I'm gonna be willing to bet when we see this version, this subconscious shadow Harry pop up again in future books,

It's gonna be when Harry is at some of his most exhausted points.

Baloreilly (1:04:34)
I can think of at least two or three occasions where that's true in skin game. Yeah, absolutely.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:04:39)
So

I think that this example of A, you're right, the Delaney thing, the Murphy thing, they've hit him real hard and he's in that death wish, like, I don't deserve to be here kind of a maybe suicidal kind of situation kind of on the edge there. And so A, the shadow Harry has a real big incentive to come up and B, our cognitive main Harry, he is not.

in a position to suppress as effectively anymore or repress, however you wanted to put it. So I think those two things are working together in this moment.

Baloreilly (1:05:15)
Yeah, I think that answers it. So next week's question for Bob is going to bounce nicely off of this idea of Harry getting tired, magically, physically, mentally, emotionally. How does a wizard's stamina even work anyway? It's not soul fire, right? He's not just tapping out his soul. There's always ambient magic in the air around him. So when he gets magically tired, what's happening?

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:05:44)
Yeah, I feel like there's been few contradictions in this and it might be some early book weirdness with some other stuff mixed together. might be Jim's not really setting any rules in stone so he can kind of have his cake and eat it too. We're gonna talk about a lot of that stuff next week, but this is the chapter here where he completely lost his magic. So I thought it was worth bringing it up.

Baloreilly (1:06:08)
Yeah, and one thing that we should keep in mind is that perhaps the reason why Harry has such powerful mental constructs is that as a wizard, he has an overflowing amount of life energy. That's what makes him a wizard in the first place, and that's what powers up every part of his being. So if that's what the stamina is tied to, it's an interesting question of what it means.

when that's depleted.

Adam “Bridger” Ruzzo (1:06:39)
Yeah, much like Erwin Pounder, who is described as having so much life force that he can, you know, be with a White Court vampire and she can't kill him on her first feeding. That could be that wizards similarly have a superior life force that they draw from.

that is not their soul, as you pointed out. That is clearly a distinct and different thing that Harry can also tap into later in the series, but it's not something that is a source of energy so much as a source of control that's made clear by Uriel later. So yeah, it's gonna be an interesting discussion, I think, but we wanna hear your thoughts. How does wizard stamina work? What examples can you think of in the series that really help demonstrate

how it is, what it means for a wizard to be out of gas the way that Harry so often is.

and that is going to be it for this week reminder. We will not have a show next week, the 29th, and we will resume on the 5th. See you then.